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Crispin,<br>
<br>
I have not heard the word eschatology since I was a student in a
theological seminary in the late 1960s. Definition from
Synonym.com:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="term-definition">
<h3 class="term">1. eschatology (n.)</h3>
<p class="definition">the branch of theology that is concerned
with such final things as death and Last Judgment; Heaven and
Hell; the ultimate destiny of humankind</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Very appropriate choice of words as atmospheric CO2 levels rise and
could well contribute to (what you wrote):.
<blockquote type="cite"> to turn the whole planet into a verdant
gardený of delight. </blockquote>
But probably not "delight". More like a "hothouse garden
eventually supporting less than half the number of the world's
current population" (which means the end of standards of living as
known today, but maninly suffered through environmental disruption,
war, famine and disease inflicted on our descendants, unless
drawdown is accomplished.)<br>
<br>
Your implied comparison between opinions by contemporaries of
witches in the 1600s and current opinions of scientists in the 2000s
is a bit of a streach. I'll interprete that as an attempt at
humor. <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)</span></span><br>
<br>
[NOTE: I EXPECT that this message will unfortunately be taken as
proof that this Subject is "Off Topic" for the Stoves Listserv.
Sorry. I am looking for a place to take this conversation, but with
emphasis on the pro-action about carbon drawdown, not the lamenting
and gnashing of teeth aspects of eschatology. ]<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/12/2017 4:48 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
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Dear Nikhil</div>
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Doesn't Sujatha's project making char while cooking and selling
it to a foundry to reduce coal consumption ýfall into your
definition? That is specifically CDM funded to offset a fossil
fuel in current use. </div>
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<br>
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An additional point missing from your cogent analysis is that
increased CO2 emissions decrease the need by plants for water
resulting not only in a higher growth rate, but extending the
water supply. The only specific number I have for that is 'dry
lands' (Sahel etc) ýshowing that for each 1% increase in CO2
concentration there is a soil moisture increase of 0.68% because
the vegetation is more water efficient. </div>
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Nowhere in the calculus of releasing CO2 from all sources is
this general greening included. 'Sustainable' implies 'static
and no worse' whereas other terms could be used such as 'net
beneficial'. </div>
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The idea that we are somehow tasked to 'keep nature static' is
misplaced. We could just as easily take our role to be to turn
the whole planet into a verdant gardený of delight. 'Nature' is
much more capable and resilient than is generally taught, and so
are we. </div>
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Carbon trading is essentially selling indulgences inspired by
climate-based eschatology.
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">ý In the 1600's the consensus held it was
all the fault of witches. </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">We can do better...</span></div>
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Regards </div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Crispin </span>
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<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Tom: <br>
<br>
I wonder where you have seen stove projects financed by
"carbon credits based on fossil fuel offsets." I am not aware
of any. <br>
<br>
To my knowledge, CDM and voluntary carbon projects are for
reductions in CO2 and other qualified GHG emissions WITHIN THE
PROJECT BOUNDARIES as approved by either the
inter-governmental authorities (CDM) or self-proclaimed
authorities (Gold Standard). <br>
<br>
There is no specific requirement that the GHG emission
reductions come from changes in fossil fuels use, UNLESS such
use is in the "baseline". I know of no such stove project,
though I would very much like to see one - e.g., improved coal
heating stoves Asia or South Africa. <br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
When the baseline - existing and future use in absence of
the intervention - is only biomass, the requirement I am
aware of is that reduction in CO2 (rather, all Kyoto gases)
emissions have to be adjusted for fNRB - "fraction
Non-Renewable Biomass:" If biomass fuel use within the
project boundaries is currently deemed to be "renewable" or
"sustainable", it is assumed to be "carbon-neutral". <br>
<br>
This is an anti-poor, irrational requirement. It leads to
all kinds of gaming and discourages or eliminates carbon
finance for "efficient biomass stoves" projects. But this is
the irony of IPCC calculus - biomass is assumed to be
renewable, so fuel emissions from biomass are to be reported
not in the emissions inventories but only in LULUCF (Land
Use, Land Use Changes, and Forestry) if they lead to
deforestation. <br>
<br>
I would be more than happy to generate opposition to this
ideological decision by IPCC, that is then followed under
CDM. It does not matter where the CO2 absorbed by new
vegetation comes from -- fossil fuels or biomass fuels.
Similarly, the CO2 emission reduction by lower biomass use
should not be deducted for some presumed "renewable biomass
fraction" (i.e., 1-fNRB). <br>
<br>
It is now nearly 30 years since AES Corporation around here
created an offsets project by investing in a Guatemala
forestry project to offset the emissions from its coal or
gas power project in Connecticut. (<a
href="http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/10/09/how-a-forestry-offset-project-in-guatemala-allowed-emissions-in-the-usa-to-increase/"
moz-do-not-send="true">How a forestry offset project in
Guatemala allowed emissions in the USA to increase</a>,
REDD-Monitor 9 October 2009. That was a valid "fossil fuel
offset" project, though as the REDD-Monitor piece concludes,
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none;
padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_extra">"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Georgia,"Times New
Roman",Times,serif">F</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Georgia,"Times
New Roman",Times,serif">or at least the first ten
years of the AES-CARE project, emissions from the power
plant vastly exceeded the carbon sequestered in the
AES-CARE project. At the same time, CARE diverted
resources from poverty alleviation to carbon monitoring.
Given that the project had been running since the 1970s
it’s is difficult to see how the project could possibily
be considered to be additional. In effect AES wrote a
cheque which allowed emissions to continue."</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
There were similar projects in the 1990s under bilateral
initiatives such as USIJI (US Initiative for Joint
Implementation), but after Kyoto became effective, such
experimentation stopped. All official carbon credit projects
(under CDM) and all voluntary carbon projects that I am
aware of were simply based on emissions within project
boundaries. <br>
<br>
Stove projects are relatively new, and as I discovered today
from Ci-Dev, UK buys credits from stove projects and retires
them (i.e., plain grants), while Sweden and Switzerland buy
credits (based on fNRB) and uses them toward national
commitments for GHG emission reductions. They would be
hard-pressed to argue that it is only the fossil CO2 that
they are using these credits against; there are non-fossil
fuel GHG emissions in their national inventories. <br>
<br>
I come from the old school thought in science and law -
before talking substance, get the process (incl.
definitions) right.
<br>
<br>
Nikhil <br>
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<div><font
face="georgia,
serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;
font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br>
<i>Skype:
nikhildesai888</i><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 11:35 AM, <span
dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Paul,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">This
topic is relevant. Several stove suppliers have
made the investment in certification and third
party verification of carbon credits based on
fossil fuel offsets. If biochar is included it
could provide additional benefits which we
should account for even if there is currently
little or no monetary benefit for carbon
sequestration. Some stove suppliers have created
carbon offset markets based on their own
(sometimes internal) verification system for
biochar and sold the “offsets” to voluntary
contributors. If this is going to become a
credible “voluntary” standard than the protocol
for measuring and accounting for biochar must be
consistent.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Tom</span></p>
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