<div dir="ltr">Paul: <br><br>A belated comment on this exchange: <br><br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">Kevin: <span style="font-size:11pt">CONCLUSION: With the costing and performance assumptions shown above, unless the Cook gets more than the equivalent of $US48.80 per tonne CO2 carbon credits, it is not advantageous for the Cook to “sell” the char… it is more advantageous for the Cook to burn it for another meal.<br><br>Paul: t</span>hen why are the people so delighted with the charcoal buyback? ( ?? cultural reasons??? such as not having a tradition of cooking with charcoal at the household level (true) ... or their perception of the value of a few cents is greater than their perception of the expense of the cooking task? ... or some other reason(s) ???<br><br>and <br><br>Paul: "Consider the case of the cook who has no real use for the char, which means that the cost of fuel is 100% allocated to the cooking, and the resultant char has zero value. "</blockquote><br>You (Paul) are confusing perception of cost and value with the reality. How the cook perceives his cost is beside the point; the char remaining has a non-zero value. That value may be reduced by the transaction cost of realizing the value, or it has some use you have not considered. <br><br>It is possible that the cook is so short of reliable cash income that making and selling char is better than alternative means of generating that cash income. (Which is the same as your "perception of the value of a few cents is greater than their perception of the expense of the cooking task", except that the cooking task probably remains the same, with negligible marginal labor in retaining charcoal.) <br><br>In the Deganga case, apparently there is no tradition of cooking with charcoal at the household level. That could change. <br><br>However, it is more likely the case (my conjecture) that the commercial cooking market can bear the cost of charcoal for the pricing of foods they produce. In other words, the cook says, "Look, there are things cooked with charcoal that have economies of scale, so I better buy them from the shop instead of cooking at home. <br><br>I remember making, as a child, char from an "open" (metal, key shaped) stove with fairly hard chopped wood. After dousing with water, the char would be cut up and stored for a) indoor cooking on a charcoal stove (once it was lit outside) and b) saving for rainy days, when dry wood was not available or had a higher price. <br><br>There is an overall economy of fuel and food, with substitution possibilities (and hence price elasticities) on both demand and supply side. Spreadsheets are good for small, static situations where many other assumptions also hold (as Kevin pointed out in another post about mealtimes and meals). <br><br>Having wood at practically zero financial cost may not be difficult where opportunities to earn wage income are extremely limited. Char as a business may be a perfect seasonal employment activity. <br><br>Nikhil<br><br><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">--------- </font></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Kevin,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the spreadsheet. This is an interesting situation where
calculated numbers are not matching with some human activities about
the value of charcoal.<br>
<br>
This discussion is only with the Biochar group, so I am adding the
Stoves Listserv and attaching the spreadsheet.<br>
<br>
Notes;<br>
<br>
The use of BTU/LB in columns H and I should be in the green
(calculated) values and the corresponding metric units (which you
provide) should be the yellow variables that can be entered.
Please.<br>
<br>
I notice that changes in the Value of unburned char/kg (C23 ) is
essentially linked to the cost of fuel wood (C5) , and therefore
virtually dictate the conclusion of carbon credit pricing needed
(C28 ). So, the price stays quite high.<br>
<br>
****************<br>
A. Consider the case of the cook who has no real use for the char,
which means that the cost of fuel is 100% allocated to the cooking,
and the resultant char has zero value. To that cook there is no
trade-off about char being used for cooking other meals. Selling
the char is "pure profit", whether it is a calculated value of
$0.16/kg (as in C26) or merely $0.12/kg as in Deganga, India, or
only $0.08/kg which is still better than nothing.<br>
<br>
B. Current "traditional" cooking with charcoal that is produced by
generally inefficient "traditional" char-making methods would have a
char yield (C6) of between 10% (burning too much to ash) and 25%
(leaving volatiles in the char, or even some incomplete
pyrolysis/torrification). <br>
<br>
C. But for those people who produce traditional char, the "cost of
fuel wood" (C5) could be as low as zero (illegal cutting or
destructive cutting) or some notional value of the time spent to
make the charcoal. <br>
<br>
Others need to comment also. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a> </pre><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299WordSection1"><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-msg"><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-text">
<font face="monospace"><span style="white-space:pre"> </span></font><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">biochar@yahoogroups.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> [</span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 11, 2017 4:02
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hugh McLaughlin </span><a href="mailto:hsmclaughlin@verizon.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><hsmclaughlin@verizon.net></span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">; </span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">biochar@yahoogroups.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [biochar] Where to discuss
STOVES AND CARBON offsets and drawdown</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-msg">
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299ygrp-text">
<p>Hugh and Kevin,<br>
<br>
First to Hugh: Why do you write <u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">$0.10/kg
is a more reasonable assumption.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">when
that is what Kevin actually said. <br>
<br>
Then to Kevin: Actually, it the char yield is
20% per kg of fuel (closer to actual than is
25% or 30%), then the number becomes <span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">$US
250 per tonne of char = $US250/3.42 = $US
73.10 per tonne of CO2 equivalent. </span><br>
<br>
To all: As reported in the Deganga Case Study
(page 4, 3rd paragraph), in that case study
the people were actually paying US$0.075 per
kg of firewood. And they burn 3 to 4 kg per
day (which is less than half of baseline fuel
consumption). Note: 4 kg of firewood at 20%
char yield would be about 0.8 kg of char per
day (matches the measured quantities of char
purchased from the households). <br>
<br>
And they were receiving payment of $0.12 per
kg of char via the "Earn while you cook"
arrangements (page 4, second paragraph from
the bottom of the page), which would be $0.04
per 0.3 kg (just citing Kevin's initial number
for some comparison) or $0.024 per 0.2 kg (the
approximate actual char production per day of
cooking.).<br>
<br>
Can we use some of these above numbers and
send a revised statement, please? <br>
<br>
And if the point is still <u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">it is more
advantageous for the Cook to burn it [the
char] for another meal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">then
why are the people so delighted with the
charcoal buyback? ( ?? cultural reasons???
such as not having a tradition of cooking with
charcoal at the household level (true) ...
or their perception of the value of a few
cents is greater than their perception of the
expense of the cooking task? ... or some
other reason(s) ???<br>
<br>
All are welcome to comment, please.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
9/11/2017 1:22 PM, Hugh McLaughlin wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1505143290346_69115">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">ERRATA:
$10/tonne is $0.01/kg.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1505143290346_69114">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1505143290346_69117">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">If
there is any transportation,
$100/tonne or the basis used for the
calculation: $0.10/kg is a more
reasonable assumption.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1505143290346_69118">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1505143290346_69113">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Hugh
McLaughlin, PhD, PE</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">CTO
- NextChar.com</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">On
Monday, September 11, 2017 2:03
PM, </span><a href="mailto:kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca[biochar]" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">"kchisholm@seaside.ns.ca
[biochar]"</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><biochar@yahoogroups.com></span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt;background:white"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-msg">
<div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-text">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Paul</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Assume that such fuelwood costs $US10 per
tonne, or $US.10
per kg.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Assume that 1 kg of such wood is “burned” in a
TLUD, to cook a
meal, and that
there is .25 kg
char yield. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Assume also that the char could be used to cook
a second meal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">The cost of fuel per meal is thus $US.10, if
the char is not
used for cooking,
OR, it is $US.05
if the char is
subsequently used
to cook a second
meal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thus, if somebody gave the Cook $US.05 for the
.3 kg of char, the
Cook could be
“revenue neutral”.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thus, the cost of “Carbon Credits” that reaches
the actual Cook
should be a
minimum of
$US.05/.3 kg char
= $US.167 per kg
char, or $US167
per tonne char =
$US167/3.42 =
approximately
$US48.80 per tonne
of CO2 equivalent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">CONCLUSION: With the costing and performance
assumptions shown
above, unless the
Cook gets more
than the
equivalent of
$US48.80 per tonne
CO2 carbon
credits, it is not
advantageous for
the Cook to “sell”
the char… it is
more advantageous
for the Cook to
burn it for
another meal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Does this make sense to you?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best wishes,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11pt">Kevin<u> </u></span></p></div><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-msg"><div id="gmail-m_-6326700001594345299yiv1179526857ygrp-text"><div><div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black"> <u> </u></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u> </u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>