<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">List and 3 ccs: </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 22, 2017, at 8:13 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Dear Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">></span><b class="">[RWL1: I believe the equation (to repeat: e3=e1/(1-e2) ) is not wrong, not spurious, not faulty and is scientific. <o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It is wrong, it is spurious, it is faulty (logically) and is therefore not scientific because science rests upon logic.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1’: All could be true, but you are again not addressing anything specific about the WBT’s e3 = e1/1(1-e2) equation. Surprisingly to me, you even say below that it does have a valid use!</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">>My main support is that it is currently used in the WBT in the ISO TC 2785 process. <o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Your “support” lends no support. It is definitely in the WBT and that is why the WBT doesn’t give correct answers to the question, “What is the fuel consumption of this stove?” It also fails to correctly answer the question, “What is the specific fuel consumption of this stove?”</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2’: This is a statement that the people voting in the ISO TC285 process are ignorant. I think they are not.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">The question I think is being answered is different from your two. Mine is: </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>“What would the fuel consumption of a stove making char (either intentionally or accidentally) be if no char had been made?”</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>How about rephrasing your two questions so they contain the word “char”? You below seem to concur that my question (which I say is the same as the WBT question) has validity.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">>To have that status, this equation was recently endorsed by numerous experts from numerous countries (with South Africa in a small minority, I think).<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You are talking through your hat, I am afraid. The equation has no support from ‘experts’ and has no support in the literature. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3’: Again a statement that the (sizable) TC285 group has no experts. I gave my favorite citation and I’m sure can give dozens if not hundreds more using the e3=e1/(1-e2) equation. Do you disagree with either the “dozens” or “hundreds” estimate?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>You have given no literature support - even though I have asked at least 3 times for a citation today alone. Apologies, but I must ask you again for a single “expert” peer reviewed cite for your assertion that the equation has no validity. (although you below reverse this assertion)</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto;"><div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class="">It is an unfortunate and unique piece of junk that pollutes the stove performance space. That it still has support in certain quarters tells us something about the supporters, not the value of the error.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">[RWL4: This is third time you have </span><span style="font-size: 15px;" class="">said</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> the same thing (still without a cite).</span></font></b><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span></font></div><div class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class=""><br class=""></span></font><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto;"><div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><o:p class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal;"> </span></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">>I know of no peer-reviewed publication that argues against e3=e1/(1-e2). Please list all those such cites that you like.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">A thorough investigation of engineering sources finds no support for rating performance on the basis of any of the energy being subtracted from the denominator, the input energy. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: What is the name and location of this “<i class="">thorough investigation</i>”?</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">There is no need to publish a peer-reviewed article attacking junk science.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: I have seen the same statement in web sites and blogs that attack the theory of human-caused global warming. Conversely I have seen many times that scientists love nothing better than to publish a refutation. Let me know if want a cite or two on this last statement about the way scientists think.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""> The WBT ‘thermal efficiency metric’ It is self-eviscerating.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: Hmm. Google didn’t give me much toward on the “self” part - but see </b><a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=FEhtEyP2QnYC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=self-eviscerating&source=bl&ots=Hft6qkEjGi&sig=RvTKfFT7lKlrgnpWTNYoN-x4klE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit6Mzlr7rWAhVJ9GMKHYQTCXkQ6AEIRjAF#v=onepage&q=self-eviscerating&f=false" class="">https://books.google.com/books?id=FEhtEyP2QnYC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=self-eviscerating&source=bl&ots=Hft6qkEjGi&sig=RvTKfFT7lKlrgnpWTNYoN-x4klE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit6Mzlr7rWAhVJ9GMKHYQTCXkQ6AEIRjAF#v=onepage&q=self-eviscerating&f=false</a></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">Maybe you can give a specific cite in the WBT showing the “self’ part of the deboweling.</b></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><b class=""> </b></span></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="">If you want to report the production of energy, you report the energy produced divided by energy input.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="">If you wish to report energy in char, you report energy in char divided by energy input.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="">If you wish to report the energy in the pot, you report energy in the pot divided by energy input.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="">If you wish to report the energy in the pot and energy in the char you report<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li></ol><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 18pt;" class=""><span class="">(Energy in the pot + Energy in the char) divided by the energy input.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><ol start="5" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="">If you wish to report the energy lost, the energy in the pot and the energy in the char, you report<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li></ol><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 36pt;" class=""><span class="">(Energy lost + energy in the pot + energy in the char) divided by the energy input = 1<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">The denominator is always the same.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="font-weight: bold;" class="">[RWL7: I said all of those things already. None are in dispute.</span></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">If you wish to report the fraction of energy input that reached the pot and was not contained in the residual fuel, you could use the WBT formula, but that is neither the efficiency nor does it represent the fuel consumption.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL8: We are getting somewhere! You have given exactly what I want when you say: </b></div><div class=""><b class="">“</b><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">If you wish to report the fraction of energy input that reached the pot and was not contained in the residual fuel, you could use the WBT formula</span></i></font><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class="">” . <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> </span></i></font></div><div class=""></div><div class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: italic; white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">Can we now say that you endorse the equation if used for the purpose you endorse?<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class=""> </span></font></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>What term would you use for that formula, if it is not an efficiency?</b></div><div class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class=""><i class=""><br class=""></i></span></font><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">If you take the energy lost and divide it by the energy in the pot, you get a number, but it is as useless a number for assessing fuel consumption as the WBT formula.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL9: To the contrary, I think that is a wonderful idea and number and would strongly urge putting much more about energy lost into all WBT reports. In my hypothetical examples we would get ei/e1 = (1/3)/(1/3) = 1. Better for TLUDs would be ei/(e1+e2) = (1/3)/(2/3) = 1/2. Most stoves have numbers way above 2. Thanks for the suggestion - but it may be too late for the TC285 material.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><br class="">You can also take the mass of char and divide by Tuesday to provide another useless metric of no value for assessing fuel consumption. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL10: My interpretation of this sentence is that you have zero regard for stoves producing char when “<i class="">assessing fuel consumption”. </i>This is in agreement with my statement (you thoughtfully retained below)</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">There are many useless things one can do with numbers.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL10: Yup. And the converse is also true, I presume you would agree: “There are many useful things you can do with numbers” Or do you also disagree with that? You make it sound as if numbers are worthless, and surely you don’t mean that.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-weight: bold; white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I also note that you chose to only comment on a surprisingly small subset of my numbered comments below. A good many of them ask for citations - but it seems pretty certain that you won’t supply any. Perhaps Philip will be so kind as to supply one (peer-reviewed) decrying this formula e3=e1/(1-e2).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ronal W. Larson<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>22-Sep-17 20:54<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>; Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>; Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">List, Paul, Philip:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>See inserts below.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Newcomers will need to also see my message (I’ll call it “A”) of yesterday in which this issue of e3=e1/(1-e2) was a big part. (same thread title)<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Sep 22, 2017, at 4:57 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Philip,</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Good. Let's move this forward.</span><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Please provide the equation that puts char (that is, the energy in the char) above the line in a way that recognizes that it is not a loss of energy, it is only a transformation of the energy that is in the fuel.</span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL: Paul, thanks. I wonder if Philip will like the one I gave: e3’ = e1+ e2 (which was 2/3 in my “A” example). Both e1 and e2 have “1” (the input energy) in their denominator.</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Or say it some different way and show it as being of value in the equation that is to be provided. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Crispin and I have long ago come to agreement that energy efficiency is not the same as fuel efficiency.</span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL: I do not know how to interpret this. Can you or Crispin express this statement in equation terms? In my example of e1 = e2 = 1/3 (and inefficiency (“ei”) necessarily = 1/3), I am willing to use either “energy efficiency” or “fuel efficiency” for the terms e3 or e3’. Or maybe you are using e3 and e3’ for this difference? If so, which is which?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">More below, responding somewhat similarly to Philip.<br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Paul</span><br style="font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p class=""></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p class=""></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></pre><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">On 9/22/2017 12:28 PM,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">His continued fighting etc etc. What nonsense - the equation is wrong, spurious, faulty, unscientific.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL1: I believe the equation (to repeat: e3=e1/(1-e2) ) is not wrong, not spurious, not faulty and is scientific. It has been used for centuries and I know of no other (repeat NO OTHER) way to get a correct statement of efficiencies in a char-making stove when talking of cooking and comparing stoves.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">My main support is that it is currently used in the WBT in the ISO TC 2785 process. To have that status, this equation was recently endorsed by numerous experts from numerous countries (with South Africa in a small minority, I think).</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I know of no peer-reviewed publication that argues against e3=e1/(1-e2). Please list all those such cites that you like.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Efficiency is the useful energy produced divided by the fuel input.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL2: Disagree. This is fine if e2 is zero. I contend strongly that the term e2 is “useful”.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Char is not an input but a PRODUCT. Therefore it goes above the line in any efficiency calculation.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL3 Yes and No. I have said that “above the line” is fine - in one overall sense. (giving e3’ = 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3). But e3’ is not a valid equation if the interest is cooking alone. And we need a cooking only computation - if we are to compare char-making stoves to non-char-making stoves. Or do you think one should never make that comparison?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">You cannot subtract it from the feed, because it is a product ( positive) and not a negative feed.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL4; Disagree. When looking at the cooking only situation (needed to compare rockets to TLUDs), the charcoal (e2) is indeed a “negative feed”.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Please stop trying to use bad science to justify an untenable position.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">RWL5: I await your citations on comparing rockets and TLUDS. I reject the apparent South African official position that charcoal should ALWAYS be ignored. If e3 = e1 only is your position - please tell us how South Africa will be reporting its tests on TLUDS (with their sizable e2).</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">It gives the whole of stove science a bad name when the scientific illiterate try to justify their abuses.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL: Hmm. Interesting way to conduct a dialog on something that has recently been officially approved by the ISO - I believe by a sizable majority.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Ron</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Philip Lloyd<br class=""><br class="">Sent from my Huawei Mobile<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">-------- Original Message --------<br class="">Subject: Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again<br class="">From: "Ronal W. Larson"<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">To: Discussion of biomass<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>,Andrew Heggie<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">CC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew and list:<br class=""><br class="">I think we are in agreement on all but your last response, where I and you say:<br class=""><br class="">>> `Andrew - thanks for your above rebuttal to Crispin.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ronal I don't see it in those terms. Crispin has a different viewpoint<br class="">> but his goal is the same in promoting clean cookstoves.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">RWL: Afraid I can’t agree.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">I can remember no Crispin statement ever in support of char-making TLUDs, which all data shows are the cleanest. Plenty of Crispin support for cleaner stoves using coal - which I claim can never be justified - for both health and climate reasons.<br class=""><br class="">His continued fighting against the equation e3 = e1/ (1-e2) is my major concern.<br class="">Y t.v.<br class="">Ron<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">> On Sep 22, 2017, at 3:26 AM, Andrew Heggie<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On 22 September 2017 at 03:54, Ronal W. Larson<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> Andrew wrote<br class="">>> There might be a slight case for saying a<br class="">>> gasifier stove can achieve a lower massflow (particularly lower N2)<br class="">>> because the primary combustion doesn't go to completion so less<br class="">>> primary air is used, the corollary may be that the secondary flame<br class="">>> also can be burned with less excess air because the offgas has a<br class="">>> higher calorific value but not enough to make up for using 50% less<br class="">>> energy..<br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> [RWL2: Given my response in “1” - I need to address the term “50”<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ronal I clarified this in my reply to Paul, obviously it is subject to<br class="">> experimental measurements but from a desk study given that the char is<br class="">> reacted at 600C AND 20% of the original biomass dry weight remains as<br class="">> char then it looks like the energy remaining in the char is closer to<br class="">> 1/3 than 1/2 of the original energy in the dry wood.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> Andrew: I am not understanding your last 15 words.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Partially dealt with above but also what I was meaning was that the<br class="">> offgas from a TLUD, with just sufficient primary are to maintain the<br class="">> descending pyrolysis front, will be largely the pyrolysis offgas plus<br class="">> the small amount of gases from the combustion that provides the heat<br class="">> to drive the process. So it will be little diluted by CO2 and nitrogen<br class="">> than from a traditional fire which supplies enough under grate<br class="">> (primary) air to completely burn out the char. Hence the offgas from<br class="">> TLUD is of a higher calorific value and as such needs less excess air<br class="">> to maintain a clean flame. On a larger scale with lower heat losses in<br class="">> the primary region this may not be the case.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> Disagree with Crispin’s statement that a case with 25% char retention<br class="">>> involves “50% of the original energy” (as did Paul Anderson).<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Also dealt with but we need corroboration from analysis of TLUD char.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> Agree with most by Andrew - but think the last sentence needs amplification.<br class="">>> That is - lower temperature char can be a better economic choice, even if<br class="">>> “fixed carbon retention” is less. This is better discussed on the biochar<br class="">>> list. pH value is one criterion that could point toward lower T’s.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> ...and of course lower fuel input cost would make it more economic<br class="">> even if the carbon credit paid to the producer were based solely on<br class="">> the fixed carbon.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> [RWL7: I have seen NO data to show that LPG stoves do not<br class="">>> have lower emissions than any solid fuel stove.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> It seems unlikely to me that simple stoves could have lower emissions<br class="">> than a LPG flame but Crispin did say as near as makes no difference<br class="">> and good enough works for me.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> Andrew<br class="">>> The trouble is I have a<br class="">>> parochial view and not a good worldview of what types of persons<br class="">>> depend on biomass fuelled stoves. Are they also predominantly growers?<br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> [RWL9: Yes to Andrew’s last question. I disagree with Andrew calling<br class="">>> himself “parochial” - when he supports (as do I) the ethics of “a subsidy<br class="">>> funded by the developed world”.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> I was referring more to my lack of experience of stoves in the real<br class="">> developing world compared with yourself, Crispin, Nikhil and many<br class="">> others.<br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> So my contention is that apart from the carbon credit there is a value<br class="">>> to the land in not having to export a cash crop.<br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> [RWL10: Agree totally.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> It still means the grower needs to recognise that exporting a<br class="">> conventional cash crop is removing mineral wealth from the holding, in<br class="">> many soils with high initial fertility this may not be significant. So<br class="">> whilst the cash that the grower/stove user might receive will be<br class="">> linked to the carbon credit paid for using the resultant char as a<br class="">> soil amendment he might also value not having to use the land for a<br class="">> cash crop and possibly growing stove fuel.<br class="">>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">>> `Andrew - thanks for your above rebuttal to Crispin.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Ronal I don't see it in those terms. Crispin has a different viewpoint<br class="">> but his goal is the same in promoting clean cookstoves.<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Andrew<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> _______________________________________________<br class="">> Stoves mailing list<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="">><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">_______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Stoves mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Stoves mailing list</span><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br class=""></span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br class=""></span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br class=""></span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br style="font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Stoves mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>