<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Philip, and adding the stoves list:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts below.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 27, 2017, at 10:02 AM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">My thought experiment was not directed at TLUD’s specifically, and as you note, a TLUD generally lacks the flexibility.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: It certainly apples to all TLUDs; we can omit the word “generally”. No one would ever want to run a TLUD without making char. They do horribly in combusting the char. Their value is in producing char, not consuming it.</b></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">My assumption was for 29% char by mass from the fuel that was pyrolysed to char. The 30% was the energy efficiency of fuel use when used purely as a cooker, I.e. my case 1. I fear you confuse mass production efficiency with energy efficiency.</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: No I think I am not confused. I understood perfectly that your 29% number was a weight number. I am saying you can’t independently just select a final arbitrary non-charcoal efficiency to go with the experimental data (in your case 30%). Your example had nothing to do with mass conversion efficiency - nor should it. The efficiency numbers come from careful attention to the conversion from weight (which of course has to be done) to energy. Your example in the main longest paragraph had only limited mention of weights. Have you tried changing your 29% weight number to 27% to obtain my claimed 30% (to be used in tier rankings)?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I really do not understand “</span>the methodology that Dr. Lloyd correctly employs is directional - it has always been used to predict what you can’t measure. If you can measure the 30% you have no need for this equation.<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">” Perhaps my lack of understanding arises from the confusion between mass and energy noted in the para above.\</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: No - that is not the problem. And yes I agree with your final sentence below on the 1-e2 discussion. You have continued to claim that this term is increasing an efficiency. It is not - it is decreasing the total efficiency - which we agree should also be reported.</b></div><div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""> </span><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">My comment re “no benefit” was a statistical conclusion; my experience in stove testing suggests that 30% energy efficiency is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">±</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">3%, while the mass of char you can produce is more like<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">±</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>6%, so 30% is statistically identical to the 32.1%.</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: I am quite sure that Jim Jetter and others in the testing business would not be happy with that much variation on a single stove tested all on the same day with identical wood. But I agree that there is not that much difference between 32.1% than 30%. My complaint is that your 30% has zero basis for being involved in the discussion at all. </b></div><div><br class=""></div><div> </div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">On the (1-e2) question, I can only repeat, that efficiency is useful energy delivered/raw fuel fed (er). A stove that both cooks and produces char therefore delivers useful energy for heating the meal (eh) and useful fuel (ef)for another service, so the efficiency is (eh+ef)/er. </span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: I have no problem with that definition (which I have written as e4 = e1+e2, where my terms are dimensionless numbers and yours are in MJ). But that can’t be used in the Tier system - which I mentioned four times (my points 3,4, and 8 below). </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I am not certain of the physical meaning of the (1-e2) equation.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: I hope you will try to learn of its importance. (Essentially important only in tier rankings.) It would also help to know your responses to each of my nine numbered points below - especially to number 3.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Prof Philip Lloyd<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Energy Institute, CPUT<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">PO Box 1906<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Bellville 7535<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Tel 021 959 4323<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Cell 083 441 5247<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">PA Nadia 021 959 4330<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:57 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; Philip Lloyd<br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tami Bond; Paul Anderson<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Lloyd and List: cc Drs Anderson and Bond<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I find nothing wrong with the arithmetic here. But I find the methodology and conclusion wrong.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">2. Re methodology for TLUDs, it is generally not possible to do what Dr. Lloyd asserts - testing a stove alternatively back forth with and without char-making. The equations are designed to predict stove efficiency when it can’t be measured. There may be stoves that can do what he asserts, but I don’t know of any. Doing that testing will be a big help in this “equation debate”. The intent of the arithmetic in his second paragraph is to come up with a thermal efficiency number that allows comparison with stoves that only inefficiently make char. One key purpose of that comparison is for using the existing Tier system. This computation however should have nothing to do with the utility of a Tier system; that is a different topic. The issue here is one of accuracy of the computation.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">3. Dr. Lloyd’s key assumption in “case 2” (not a measurement) below was for 29% char making. If that number had instead been 27%, he would have achieved the 30% of “case 1” almost exactly. A 2 % difference in one place leads to a 2.1% difference in another. To encourage others to get into this, I intentionally do not show all the intermediate steps, but I am sure Philip will tell us if this is so.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">4. In the perfectly valid 2nd case, the calculated final 32.1% stove thermal efficiency would be the logical value to insert in Tier comparisons - not 30%. To repeat - the methodology that Dr. Lloyd correctly employs is directional - it has always been used to predict what you can’t measure. If you can measure the 30% you have no need for this equation.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">5. As to Dr. Lloyd’s “no benefit” conclusion, I fail to see how any of the calculations allows that. From the standpoint of the person wanting charcoal, it is certainly preferable to have the world believe 32.1% rather than the arbitrary 30% for stove thermal efficiency.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">6. I believe this answers Paul Anderson’s query also below. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">7. I am working on a more general approach to this which can remove the objections of a negative sign in the denominator. This to answer Professor Bond’s concerns. It will be based on the observation that the objectionable (1-e2) is the same as (e1+io). And one can alternatively argue all this with inverting the basis equation to read e1/e3 = 1-e2 = e1+io.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">8. Re the conversation with Professor Bond, this is to add that the ISO approach also has a document on Tiers - my main concern in this discussion. My promised material in #7 will cover that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">9. I am also promising a response to Crispin’s last message to me - where one part shows he is not understanding this important part of the “denominator equation”.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Anyone see anything wrong in the above? More coming.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Sep 25, 2017, at 3:29 AM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I carried out a thought experiment.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In case 1, a cookstove burning wood boiled 5 litres of water at an energy efficiency of 30%. The useful energy provided was 5*4.186*(100-15) = 1779kJ. This required 5*4.186*(100-15)/0.3 = 5930kJ. If the as-fired wood had a LHV of 15MJ/kg, it would have needed 5930/15000 = 0.395kg wood</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In case 2, the same stove was operated to produce charcoal while also boiling 5litres of water. More wood would be needed, because not all the wood would be combusted – some would be left as char. If you fed 0.395kg wood to be turned into char at 29% efficiency, and the char had an LHV of 28MJ/kg, then the char would have an energy of 0.395*28000*0.29=3163kJ. The wood from which it was prepared had an energy content of 5930kJ, which was what was needed to boil the water in the absence of char production. So 5930-3163 = 2768kJ of additional energy* would be needed to boil the water if there was char production. At 15MJ/kg, this is 2768/15000 = 0.185kg extra wood, or an increase of 47% in the wood supply. The total energy supplied would then be 5930+2768 = 8698kJ. The energy efficiency of cooking would therefore fall to 1779/8698*100 = 20.5%, while the efficiency of char production would have been 3163/8698*100 = 36.4%. The system efficiency would have been 20.5+36.4 = 56.9%</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">If you used the WBT formula, the efficiency of boiling with char production would have been 1779/(8968-3163)*100 = 32.1%. Given the measurement errors inherent in the WBT method, this would have been statistically indistinguishable from the efficiency with no char production – i.e. it would have shown no benefit to char production.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Prof Philip Lloyd</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Energy Institute, CPUT</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">PO Box 1906</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Bellville 7535</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Tel 021 959 4323</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Cell 083 441 5247</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">PA Nadia 021 959 4330</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">*This assumes that there is no endotherm in the pyrolysis of wood in the presence of air, and that all the pyrolysis products except the char burn to provide heat. There is evidence in the literature of no endotherm in the presence of air.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Paul Anderson<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, September 24, 2017 11:27 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</span></a>; Andrew Heggie; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">Philip, Tom and all,<br class=""><br class="">Philip is mostly correct. Actually wood takes up (has) too much WEIGHT. Wood has 3 times (or more, if the char is poorly made) the ENERGY value of charcoal that could come from that char. But it has about 5 times the DRY weight of the char, plus there can be 20 to 50% moisture content to make the wood even heavier. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">And the charcoal has almost double (30 vs. 16) the energy content by weight, but char is so much lighter per unit of volume. So the trucks are buldging upward and sideways with the sacks of charcoal strapped to them. Weight of charcoal is not a problem for most transport.<br class=""><br class="">Apart from the transportation issue, I believe that the appeal of charcoal is that it does not smoke (not much). CO is invisible and deadly, but the people learn to cook on the balcony or keep some air flowing. And it does not turn the bottom of the pots black.<br class=""><br class="">Charcoal is an attractive fuel. Too bad it is made by processes that throw away 2/3rds of the energy. (So, let's promote TLUD stroves and collect the char for sale to the urban folks. Only one third of the cutting of wood/forest.)<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""> So, if 100,000 households (mainly in rural or peri-urban areas) would use TLUDs, the resultant char would equal to the energy needed for an approximately equal number of households (mainly urban) that would want to burn charcoal. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Now that would be FUEL efficiency measured by communities, not by single stoves.<br class=""><br class="">Paul<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">www.drtlud.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">On 9/24/2017 11:40 AM, Tom Miles wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">That's probably why charcoal use is increasing 5% per year in SSA compared with wood fuel at 1% per year. <br class=""><br class="">T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span class="apple-style-span"><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</span></a></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span class="apple-style-span">Sent from mobile. </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><br class="">On Sep 24, 2017, at 8:50 AM, "<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</span></a>" <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">plloyd@mweb.co.za</span></a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">Just a thought on Sub Saharan charcoal use. As Africa urbanizes, so it needs energy to cook. Wood takes up too much volume, and the roads are primitive. So it makes sense to use charcoal. A bicycle load will keep ten homes cooking for a week.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">The use of char oal has everything to do with logistics and nothing to do with the environment.<br class="">Philip<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Sent from my Huawei Mobile<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">-------- Original Message --------<br class="">Subject: Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again<br class="">From: Nikhil Desai<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">To: Ron Larson<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">CC: Andrew Heggie ,Crispin Pemberton-Pigott ,Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">Ron: <br class=""><br class="">What makes you believe that users of biomass-fuelled stoves are predominantly growers (of biomass)? <br class=""><br class="">Saw the figures for urban charcoal markets in Sub-Saharan Africa lately? Or looked at non-household cooking (in my view roughly 50% of cooking energy consumption worldwide)? <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</span></a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class="">Andrew and list:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><br class="">There appears to be a win win situation here and I gather there is<br class="">still a vast part of equatorial Africa where annual burning takes<br class="">place. However it brings me to another reason I like the idea, though<br class="">not the practicalities, of a householder-subsistance farmer being paid<br class="">a subsidy funded by the developed world. The trouble is I have a<br class="">parochial view and not a good worldview of what types of persons<br class="">depend on biomass fuelled stoves. Are they also predominantly growers?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class="">[RWL9: Yes to Andrew’s last question. I disagree with Andrew calling himself “parochial” - when he supports (as do I) the ethics of <i class="">“a subsidy funded by the developed world”.</i></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class=""> </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class="">[RWL10: Agree totally. And I think this is what will eventually kill the geoengineering technology that is often placed ahead of biochar - BECCS. In BECCS, as with “clean coal”, the CO2 from combustion (never pyrolysis) is placed, as liquid, deep underground. Major expenses needed to protect the world’s soil are not needed for biochar. Soil quality is closely linked to carbon content - and biochar does this with no penalty - while apparently being the cleanest and most efficient of all possible solid-fuel stoves.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class="">`Andrew - thanks for your above rebuttal to Crispin.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class="">Ron<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">_______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Stoves mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-color: white;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Stoves mailing list</span><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br class=""></span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br class=""></span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br class=""></span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>