<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="" dir="auto">List:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Apologies for several extraneous messages -but I think at some point we will have photos as well.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew Heggie <<a href="mailto:aj.heggie@gmail.com" class="">aj.heggie@gmail.com</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Re: Fwd: [Stoves] stoves and credits again</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">September 28, 2017 at 1:34:55 PM MDT<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">"Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Ronal I am away for some days and cannot do much on this phone. suggest you reply to Todd and add stoves. This should strip the pictures. Andrew</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On 28 Sep 2017 19:44, "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Andrew, cc Todd (with intent for all below to go to the list)<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I believe this response to me (alone) is worthy of going to the full list. But I fear the 4 photos would exceed the list limit. Can you figure out a mode that will allow the photos to be seen some way? Nice photos.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Todd - I can understand your position on char-making. To make TLUDs work, we need stove users to understand the value of char in soil. Helpful, but probably not essential when #1 is happening, will be incentives. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I just read today of France establishing a tax of more than 30 Euro’s per tonne CO2, almost tripling by 2022 (<a href="https://www.reuters.com/article/france-budget-carbon/update-2-france-raises-carbon-taxes-to-repay-edf-renewables-debt-idUSL8N1M832O" target="_blank" class="">https://www.reuters.com/<wbr class="">article/france-budget-carbon/<wbr class="">update-2-france-raises-carbon-<wbr class="">taxes-to-repay-edf-renewables-<wbr class="">debt-idUSL8N1M832O</a>). Multiply by about 3 (later 10 and more) to get the value of charcoal - about 0.10 Euros per kg. I predict this will be enough to get your stove clients to prefer TLUDs to Rockets. In your opinion: is this enough to have your clients in Myanmar (or anywhere) think about this low-cost means of cooking?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I hope you can do the small test I ask about below: testing any of your TLUD models for the amount of char produced so we could compare (using the “denominator equation”) with your other data when you “burn” the char in the smoldering fashion you described.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="m_-5285617531467060621Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">Todd Albi <<a href="mailto:todd.r.albi@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">todd.r.albi@gmail.com</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><b class="">Re: [Stoves] stoves and credits again</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">September 27, 2017 at 11:32:11 PM MDT<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">"Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Ron:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We have <i class="">no interest in char production</i>, our focus is <i class="">cooking. </i>We would consider very large retorts on very large institutional stoves or larger more suitable for bio char production. Efficient small household cook stoves have limited value producing meaningful volumes of biochar in our opinion. Our stoves produce primarily fine ash in very small quantities. Our fan stove is producing maybe a 1/2 tsp of fine ash, not much of a market, I assure you. We would be wasting our time quantifying char outcomes on any of our stoves.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You'll notice that our rocket stove has a door that is always falling down on the fuel, that creates and reflects a hotter fire in the combustion chamber intentionally. Your ancestors cooked on their wood stoves with the doors shut not open. Or at least with the dampner significantly reduced to achieve a hotter fire. If the doors had been left open, colder air is accessing the firebox, allowing larger char formation which is impeding ventilation in the firebox, reducing heat transfer to the cooking vessel. Our ancestors knew if they were good stewards of there stove they had less of a burden cleaning their stoves with only fine ash to sweep out when cleaning stove. Large char formation would have been also meant more labor for cooks. I recall my grandmother chasing me away from her wood stove with a wood spoon if touched her stove or tried to adjust dampness while cooking.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Our markets with SilverFire is mixed, both developed and developing markets. Our most recent developed nation stove implementation in 2017 was 10,000 stoves to Myanmar, with the participation of the Chinese government. The GACC showed up, (<i class="">not at the stove demonstration sessions with the Myanmar Forest Service</i>), but only post stove demonstrations, at the official glad-handing ceremonial government function, to discuss policy with micro financing partners in tow. I predict there will not be much success due to financial constraints and cell phones are more a priority and the abundance of free bricks available. A 3 brick fire is free and an efficient stove is way down the list of priorities for the poor.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><object width="640" height="480" id="m_-5285617531467060621BC745130-56E2-4B32-BAD8-CC13BEC9EDC9" class="" apple-inline="yes" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" data="cid:ii_j8409cic0_15ec6e8788ca73bd" type="application/x-apple-msg-attachment"></object><br class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><object width="640" height="480" id="m_-52856175314670606218E7DBD70-1D1A-4D05-9912-2FBDF8541565" class="" apple-inline="yes" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" data="cid:ii_j840ftbc1_15ec6ed13751aa52" type="application/x-apple-msg-attachment"></object></div><div class="">Most folks are cooking outdoors.<br class=""><object width="640" height="480" id="m_-52856175314670606219FB8525A-8B84-4BA0-9FDF-918CA1A8FDB6" class="" apple-inline="yes" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" data="cid:ii_j840hfya2_15ec6ee3c6daf08c" type="application/x-apple-msg-attachment"></object><br class=""><object width="640" height="480" id="m_-5285617531467060621BFB3996F-1C2A-4F30-87B5-F1A22C269E3F" class="" apple-inline="yes" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" data="cid:ii_j840ikz33_15ec6ef0b771d966" type="application/x-apple-msg-attachment"></object><br class="">This last photo is one of the only indoor stoves & pantry I could locate for multiple families.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Todd</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Todd cc list<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> <span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>First to say that you have a nice website. I first viewed a video on your Rocket product - and so was surprised at your web site to see several TLUDs. I would be most interested in test results where you could give us the char amount when the pyrolysis front has hit bottom. I presume easy to do. This would answer the question of what the “denominator equation” would produce for your efficiency under that scenario. I guess it would improve upon your presently identified 35% (Tier 3). More questions also below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">See below</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:18 PM, Todd Albi <<a href="mailto:todd.r.albi@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">todd.r.albi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Crispin is correct. Running TLUD’s in efficient cook stoves produce little, if any char. </div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: Most TLUD advocates would not understand the “little char” comment. The question is whether your stoves</b><b class=""> could be labeled more efficient than 35% if the char was rescued.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""> Our most efficient Super Dragon Fan Stove or Teg Fan Stove, or the Cook Air Fan grill we offer leave only small amounts of fine ash and have <i class="">no value producing char</i>. </div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: Have you any evidence that any of yourTLUDs that have been sold might have operated in a char-saving mode? To place the char in the ground as biochar?</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">In fact, one could contend that a cook stove that produces lots of char is actually impeding both ventilation and heat transfer to the pot.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: This is a new concept to me. Can you explain why this is so?</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Our natural draft Scout trekking gasifier and larger natural insulated Hunter chimney stove also leave primarily ash and extremely little char, the fuel is maximized for cooking, not char production. . </div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><br class=""><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: No dispute on that for the way you are operating them. The question is what market might exist for operating the exact same TLUD stoves in a way to maximize char. I get the sense from your web site that your primary market is US. How many of your stoves are used in developing countries?</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">We’d contend efficient cooking and making char is two opposing value outcomes.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: No disagreement from me on this. When I started on this in about 1992, my sole motivation was to be able to avoid the wholesale destruction of forests to make charcoal. Still true, but now more emphasis on the climate side. I</b><b class="">n this country, I can’t make the forest saving argument, and really not the climate argument, but maybe the soil improvement argument for your US buyers might work.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I once talked to the Dutch developer of the Phillips stove. He only operated his (I believe daily) in a char-saving mode - although they are seldom advertised that way (being fan powered).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>So in sum, I have no quarrel with anything you are doing or saying. But it would me mighty interesting to know whether you could beat your 35% efficiency number by not consuming all the produced char - in the very low power mode you describe on your site, after the high power start.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">Thanks for the added input. Good luck on your sales. Response next to the Crispin note you are responding to.</b></div><div class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Todd Albi, SilverFire</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span id="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524cid:ii_j83rsgdn0_15ec60f6787527fc" class=""><Teg4.jpg></span><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524m_-8780856213232465839WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Dear Ron<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">></span></b><b class="">No one would ever want to run a TLUD without making char. They do horribly in combusting the char. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Our experiences differ. We received stoves for testing the in CSI Pilot in Central Java that not only made char then burned it and the char could be forwarded to the next replication of the cooking sequence. Stoves that could do that were,
according to the rules of engagement, tested with a fuel load that included recycled fuel from a previous burn, during all evaluations. Fuel consumption is the requirement for additional fuel sourced outside the cooking system needed to replicate a cooking
sequence in any of a series of identical replications, save the first. The ‘save the first’ refers to stoves such as the TLUD’s that can burn charcoal, which can use remnant fuel in the next replication of the test. All stick-burning stoves were tested in
this manner as well, if they could use partially combusted fuel.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The lab staff in Yogyakarta, in spite of the relative simplicity of the lab, were able to get very tight groupings of test results even though the ‘forwarded fuel’ varied a bit in mass and composition.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">It can be argued that the correct assessment for such a series of test replicates is to average the entire set into a single result, rather than ‘averaging’ the averages produced individually for each test. I favour this approach as it
has a sound logical basis.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">PL >><span style="color:#1f497d" class="">I am not certain of the physical meaning of the (1-e2) equation.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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</blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524m_-8780856213232465839apple-tab-span"> ></span><b class="">[RWL6: I hope you will try to learn of its importance. (Essentially important only in tier rankings.) <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></b></p><p class="MsoNormal">Tier ranks have nothing to do with that equation. The formula is a postulate with no sound physical basis. That is why no examples could be found outside the WBT using it as an efficiency calculation. Please refer to Tami’s recent categorical
re-statement of her message earlier this year.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">It is only ‘important’ to those who wish a 25% efficient stove to be reported as having an efficiency of 50%. It is more important that such pseudo-science be stopped in its tracks.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Regards<span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></font></span></p><span class="m_-5285617531467060621m_1002421066410953524HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</font></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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