<div dir="ltr"><div>To record agreement: "A char-producing stove is not in the same category as other stoves, so it needs its own rating system". (A failure of IWA and TC-285). <br><br>Now a question - Granted, "The IWA low power metrics of emissions per minute per litre simmered are in a different class." Why does it matter that "there is no connection between the water mass simmered and the fuel consumed or the emissions from that fire"? Emissions stand on their own, for the task under consideration, with the given fuel and environmental conditions (wind, ambient temperature, humidity, etc.) <br><br>The fundamental weakness is in linking such emissions - on an hourly average computation leading on to annual average, which is what WHO guideline for IAQ is (perhaps a daily max, I forget) - to health. There is not an iota of "first principles" or medical evidence of causality between household solid fuels emission rates and, say, non-communicable diseases. <br><br>Only propositions and narrowly crafted studies or pal-pampered "evidence reviews" done by WHO. <br><br>The latest "study" is <br><br><a href="http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/how-indoor-air-pollution-is-leading-to-stunted-growth-in-india-s-children/story-2LrX34JQjgMJvzMLptkSrJ.html?platform=hootsuite">How indoor air pollution is leading to stunted growth in India’s children</a> <b>- </b>India has 61 million stunted children and there is evidence that exposure to indoor air pollution from burning solid fuels increases the probability of stunting among children. Anca Bailetti and Prateek Mittal, Hindustan Times 18 September 2017.<br><br> Or Breathe easy: <a href="http://www.hindustantimes.com/health-and-fitness/breathe-easy-indoor-pollution-more-harmful-than-earlier-thought/story-CwHOT2D8tTn5KEYePX9lpL.html">Indoor pollution more harmful than earlier thought</a> Hindustan Times 16 April 2016. (It's not about cookstoves, but it cites the mantra that indoor air pollution was linked to 403 million deaths in 2012). <br><br>Whatever experts say must be right if not enough people care to read and disagree. Science by eyeballs and votes. <br><br>Nikhil<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div class="m_-6405509498730398357WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dear Ron<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tiers have a value if they are a) based on something solid and b) have contextual relevance.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The IWA tiers failed on both counts: they did not have a sound physical basis, and there was no testing in a relevant context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It doesn’t matter whose tiers they are, it matters if they are useful,. If they are not, they are not going to be applied during a selection process.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have suggested to you a few hours ago that if you want to have a performance evaluation for char-producing stoves, create some. A char-producing stove is not in the same category as other stoves, so it needs its own rating system. That
is what ‘contextual’ ratings are about. Apples with apples. You are going to get nowhere trying to have char-making stoves rated as ‘equal in fuel consumption’ to stoves that need half as much fuel. You
<i>will</i> get somewhere calling for the stoves to be treated as a separate class of product that needs its own evaluation and certification mechanism.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In all cases, including the IWA and ISO and CSI systems, the question remains: If I use this product, what will the performance be? If the answer provided is not true, then whatever method is being used should be avoided. This is hardly
news. If you buy a tape recorder that only records on the left microphone, you take it back and demand a replacement or your money back. Why then should a stove that has half the performance be given the rating of one with full performance? It is false advertising
to misrepresent a product’s performance. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The IWA low power metrics of emissions per minute per litre simmered are in a different class. There is no metric like that which can be derived from first principles as there is no connection between the water mass simmered and the fuel
consumed or the emissions from that fire. So if a stove has achieved ‘Tier 3’ on all metrics, some of which have no meaning, how can that be supported as a means of regulation and trade? Just because regulators are working in the Third World does not mean
they are idiots.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have a look at the CSI Indonesia Pilot tiers of performance. There are three (no tier 0). They were very useful in deciding on the level of support a stove received and the benefits are clear in the field: the most stars a stove earned
(up to a possible total of 3 x 3 = 9) the better everything is in the kitchen. Tiers are very useful but they have to be valid, relevant, correctly calculated and the levels set by a negotiated process. That means the levels are political decisions, while
the testing is decided on a scientific basis involving validation, uncertainties and confidence one can have in the result.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin<u></u><u></u></p></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nikhil and list cc Crispin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-6405509498730398357apple-tab-span"> </span>I have no idea how RFPs are being handled, but it seems clear that the Philips stove (basically a TLUD) has been selected in (I think) more than one competition - and is highly ranked.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-6405509498730398357apple-tab-span"> </span>It is hard to imagine that folks writing RFPs would not consider Tiers. Agreed? <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-6405509498730398357apple-tab-span"> </span>I view the Tier system as a way of improving stove performance and believe that is happening.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-6405509498730398357apple-tab-span"> </span>I don’t believe there is any need to wait for TC 285 declarations.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ron<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 28, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Ron:<br>
<br>
<br>
Re: your "<b> The answer to the first sentence is “Tiers”.</b> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Is there a Request for Proposals for cookstoves for Tier 4 efficiency, just waiting for TC 285 declaration and adoption by US or some other donor? Are there participants here who would like to write such a proposal? <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Nikhil <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin and list<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Before responding, I need to add a promised point on this topic about 1/3 the way down in a Crispin message in this thread from the 23rd. He said, and my too-delayed responses are: <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So the argument came down to, why is the char energy to be treated differently from other energy paths? There was no clear answer why it should be. Char produced can be a metric: mass delivered. The energy in the char recovered can also
be a metric: char energy. No one has any problem with that. They are standard measures.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>[RWL1: The answer to the first sentence is “Tiers”.</b> <b>Agreed on the last part - I don’t think anyone is questioning the quantities being measured. It is only one (e3=e1/(1-e2)) that gives reasonable answers and is used widely
that is under dispute.. </b> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>