<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">List, cc Nikhil and Crispin<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Inserts below</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 28, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Crispin: <br class=""><br class="">You are too generous in "The First World's public scholars are information, and especially science-information, poor. I do not blame them for it."<br class=""><br class="">I do. All the way up to universities and tenured, honored, celebrated faculties. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: I wonder if there is a typo here. The definition of First World I find (first item ) in Googling is </b><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><b class="">“</b><font color="#222222" face="Roboto, arial, sans-serif" size="2" class="">the industrialized capitalist countries of western Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand.</font></span><font color="#222222" face="Roboto, arial, sans-serif" size="2" class="">”</font></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I doubt that many “public scholars” in the Second and Third Worlds feel that “</b><i class="">The First World’s public scholars are information, and especially science-information, poor.” </i><b class="">I’ve interacted with a few dozen scholars in third world countries - who probably have higher IQ on average than in the First world - and I doubt strongly any would agree with Crispin’s observation on apparently the majority of First World Scholars being “information-poor.</b></div><div><br class=""></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I also fail to understand Nikhil’s agreement. I take both statements to be ad hominem and prejudicial - especially without giving examples. I guess it is to denigrate those working on the ISO TC-285 process. If not, what is the purpose of making this observation on someone being science information poor?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""> </b><a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/standards/iwa-tiers-of-performance.html" class="">http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/standards/iwa-tiers-of-performance.html</a></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Your best ideas never saw the light of day? Well, Kirk Smith's worst idea - aDALY using HAPIT - is in bright sunlight now. Will post my reply to Gold Standard soon. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: Nikhil - Re “worst idea” - I asked long ago to cite anyone who agreed with you. I think you have supplied one - that didn’t come up to snuff. I suggest you are hurting your own credibility by being on this Don Quixote crusade against a widely accepted methodology that clearly is helping governments make wiser decision about how to allocate their limited resources. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It is absurd to think that Kirk Smith doesn’t know what he is talking about.. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>What is the “bright sunlight”? </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Have you a second citation on someone who agrees with your disparagement of aDALYs? <br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">ISO TC-285 is all about "Techno-cure". But aDALY is the only “saleable health product" (according to Gold Standard) to come to market soon. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">RWL3 Re sentence #1 - you must be unaware there is a fine (I’ve read the present draft) 4th part of ISO TC-285 - that is societal - not </b></div><div><b class="">"Techno-cure”. Been delayed but has a new chair who I think highly of - Ryan Thompson, formerly a grad student with Professor Bond, and an alum of Aprovecho.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Re Sentence #2- Can you give a cite - it doesn’t sound logical that aDALYs can be sold. In fact I can’t think of any statistical number I can sell to anyone. What exactly is Gold Standard selling (a cite?).<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">I am willing to sell my DALY at three times the US GDP/capita to Prof. Smith. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: Nikhil - I suggest you lose credibility when you make nonsense statements like this.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Nikhil Desai</font></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br class=""></font><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA" vlink="#954F72" link="#0563C1" class="">
<div class="m_793478906743716301WordSection1"><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Dear Jock<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><span class=""><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">>I take your point re-cooking. A great goal, but I am more focused on getting these ideas into first world public schools.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</span><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Listen carefully:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">The idea that is missing is that the cook matters. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">The prevailing idea in the First World's public schools is that poor people should 'change' so they are not poor any more. Basically they blame the poor for their poverty.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">The First World's public scholars are information, and especially science-information, poor. I do not blame them for it.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">If you promote a technology that is not optimised for the cooks, there is a danger of reinforcing in the students the idea that the cooks do not need to be the dominant players in the scientific development of cooking alternatives. I
see that as a problem. Cecil and I call it 'techno-cure': that a technology will solve the problem without reference to the people involved. Biochar will not overcome scientific illiteracy, nor anthropological illiteracy.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">A good question is whether or not a stove is a material or a social construct. An inventor is not really free to do anything they want, unless they don't care if the invention is used or not. That is my sobering experience having run
a technology development and marketing company for more than 30 years. In my narrow view, my best ideas never saw the light of day. And won't. The world isn't ready for them!!<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif" class="">😊</span><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></font></span></p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></font></span><div class=""><div class="h5"><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">These are ideas that need to be mainstream in the developed or first world or what ever we call the richer nations these days. Today there resounding ignorance in US the education system when it comes to pyrolysis and Biochar. I once
spoke with a young MIT grad with a masters from MIT in Environmental Science. She had never heard of pyrolysis, much less Biochar.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">I like your ignition idea. I could model it after a wood stove draft controller. I have been thinking about this already, but you have spurred me on.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Thanks,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Jock<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Jock Gill<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">P. O. Box 3<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Peacham, VT 05862<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Cell: <a href="tel:(617)%20449-8111" target="_blank" value="+16174498111" class="">(617) 449-8111</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> On Sep 28, 2017, at 11:38 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</span></a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Dear Jock<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> There are two user-centric goals you could add:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> That it cooks well, and long enough to be an acceptable alternative to other cooking solutions.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> That it is safe and convenient to use.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> I have a design suggestion to help with the ignition:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Suppose the central disk could be rotated 90 degrees? It could be made vertical until the gas can support a flame. Then turn it horizontal so there is no need to separately ignite the gas. You do have a flame already, you just need
to get it above the disk.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Regards<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> -----Original Message-----<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> From: Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr class="">bioenergylists.org</span></a>] On
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Behalf Of Jock Gill<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Sent: 28-Sep-17 11:31<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Subject: [Stoves] The goals of my TLUD work<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> Here are the basic goals I have for my TLUD development work:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 1. Achieve as long a period of blue flames as possible;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 2. Look like a gas stove burner - aspirational;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 3. Be very low cost so teachers can afford to make it;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 4. Get pyrolysis and Biochar into schools;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 5. Use the heat from the burning gases as completely as possible;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 6. As few and as simple parts as possible;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 7. Easy and safe construction with simple tools;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 8. No metal cutting or sharp edges;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> 9. Best run time with the maximum yield of high quality charcoal;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">Stoves mailing list<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class="">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class="">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr class="">lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="m_793478906743716301MsoPlainText"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">
Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class="">
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class="">
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr class="">lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class="">
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>