<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">A.D. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I know you have this one, but others might find this site informative: <a href="http://www.petroldieselprice.com/lp69/lpg-gas-cylinder-price-in-Mumbai-Gr-Bombay" class="">http://www.petroldieselprice.com/lp69/lpg-gas-cylinder-price-in-Mumbai-Gr-Bombay</a></div><div class="">The pertinent lines show for Mumbai:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="598A2251-526F-404B-94DC-D72AA0C35BFB" height="112" width="770" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:2B17ACC4-3972-4362-97FB-410C01D73986" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The number that pops out is the big reduction in the subsidy in the past two months (bottom line). How has this gone over? The poor are now paying 485/14.2 = 34.5 Rs/kg, vs formerly 60/14.2 = 4.22 Rs/kg.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I see Mumbai’s August price was the only one that was so low - so perhaps the jump there was just delayed and all of India has had this huge change recently?</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My main question is this: if a poor family sells its cylinder (for 485.50 Rs - or more/less?), how are future “balance credits to their bank account” handled as that container is refilled? Does the purchaser of the container only gain the 90.5 Rs benefit one time? Can the poor buy low and sell high any number of times?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But I also can’t find a way to justify your 90 Rs/kg ($1.40) cost per kg (see my 34.5 Rs/kg above - with the unsubsidized numbers less than 20% higher). These numbers today from the internet are less than half as high.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If you could also supply recent numbers for the cost of charcoal, I think we can help Paul out for his upcoming trip to Delhi. It would appear that LPG might be a better buy than charcoal - on a per MJ basis? This last assuming char should be at least 3 to 4 times more costly than wood per kg.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 2, 2017, at 11:37 PM, Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" class="">adkarve@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear stovers,<div class="">LPG in cylinders is a commodity that can easily be converted into money. Those who get subsidized or free LPG in cylinders often sell the cylinders to users who have to pay the full price. Biomass is actually cheaper than LPG. It takes about 3 kg wood to get the same energy as a kg of LPG. Whereas 3kg wood costs about Rs.20 (US cents 30), non-subsidized LPG costs Rs.90 (US$1.4) per kg. Cleanly burning biomass stoves are available in India, but since the petroleum companies in India are owned by the Government of India, the government is just not interested in promoting stoves using biomass.</div><div class="">Yours</div><div class="">A.D.Karve </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">***<br class="">Dr. A.D. Karve<br class=""><br class="">Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (<a href="http://www.samuchit.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.samuchit.com</a>)<br class=""><br class="">Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br class=""></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
Stovers, <br class="">
<br class="">
Kirk Smith has shared his latest book-chapter. Links to it are
below.<br class="">
<br class="">
I make several comments, mostly with my focus on "solid biomass fuel
stoves":<br class="">
<br class="">
1. The content about LPG fuel and stoves in India is quite
worthwhile. The chapter is based on 8 solid peer-reviewed writings
that are listed in the Endnotes (all written by Smith, often with
co-authors.) For that reason, much of what is in the book chapter
is very similar to prevous writings. So this chapter brings
numerous segments together nicely. <br class="">
<br class="">
2. One paragraph (middle of the fourth page of the .pdf document)
is about biomass stoves: It says:<br class="">
<br class="">
"None of this [about LPG] has, however, affected the budget of the
renewable energy ministry, which still runs the national biomass and
biogas stove programs. These programmes should still be
encouraged,but perhaps now be better focused on the very poorest and
more remote populations that will not be reached by LPG in the next
decade." ... <br class="">
<b class="">[That is an important concession that Smith clearly makes in many
of his writings. And he goes on to say.]</b><br class="">
<br class="">
..."These people would still benefit from more efficient stoves that
at least lower pollution exposure to some extent."<br class="">
<br class="">
[That is a nice concession, but it certainly is not very forceful.
To say "... to some extent" could be a justification for mediocre
ICS stoves. Perhaps to let the poor folks have Tier 2 and Tier 3
stoves? <br class="">
And then he puts in the kicker, the comment to kill the truly clean
burning biomass stoves:]<br class="">
<br class="">
..."Unfortunately, however, no biomass stove on the market today is
nearly as reliably clean as gas fuels and, thus, cannot be proposed
yet as a health measure if gas is available." <br class="">
<br class="">
I do note the qualifier words "... if gas is available." The rest
of the chapter says that LPG or PNG (piped natural gas) is coming.
<br class="">
<br class="">
But would Smith say that sentence without the final four words?
Will he acknowledge that there are very clean burning stoves that
burn biomass? <br class="">
<br class="">
This is VERY recent writing, so it is interpreted as Kirk Smith's
current positon about the Advanced Modern Clean Cooking Solutions
("MACCS") that include the Woodgas / Micro-gasifier stoves. <br class="">
<br class="">
I do not want a fight. I want Kirk Smith to openly and
enthusiastically acknowledge the current existence and the
increasing progress of VERY CLEAN burning biomass stoves. I have
recently written about the need for recognition of the clean
burning biomass stoves, with copies reaching Smith and Dean Still
and GACC leaders who will be speaking at the coming GACC Forum. <br class="">
<br class="">
Let's try to get this clarified beforehand so that we do not need to
force discussion in the question and answer times at the Forum
presentations. Tht conversation is on-going at the Stoves
Listserv. Please share this message with everyone.<br class="">
<br class="">
************ Now back to the discussion of Smith's chapter.
*************<br class="">
<br class="">
3. On page 5 of the .pdf file are these words relating to the
sources and abundance of LPG: <br class="">
".... will be used somewhere no matter what --- autos,
petrochemicals, or being flared, are the other main uses besides
households. Why not ustilize as much as possible to the highest
social value use --- cooking for the poor?" <br class="">
<br class="">
Responses: <br class="">
A. Do not flare it. That is pure waste.<br class="">
<br class="">
B. Use LPG for autos because biomass is nowhere close to being as
good for vehicle fuel. Unlimited demand for LPG as a vehicle fuel
if the vehicles are equipped for LPG. Distribution problems are
reduced because the vehicles go the the distribution stations.
But why might this not appeal? One reason is that LPG would then
compete with gasoline and diesel fuels, and that would be
competition WITHIN the interests of Big Oil. So, therefore, it is
more business if they direct LPG to the poor people.<br class="">
<br class="">
C. LPG is NOT financially friendly to poor people. Yes, GIVE them
an LPG stove and full tank, and then expect them to forever make
payments for refills. Not a bad deal for the oil marketing
companies (OMCs), of which there are three big ones in India, with
the Government of India (GoI) owning more than 50% of each.<br class="">
<br class="">
D. Sure the LPG and PNG are clean burning (the health arguement),
but so are the MACCS that include biogas and alcohol and solar and
electric and the "Woodgas from Biomass". And of those, the Woodgas
/ gasifiers can actually use locally grown biomass of many types,
precisely the same fuels that those poor families are currently
using in their smoky stoves that are causing indoor and outdoor
pollution. Solid biomass is not a dirty fuel. Fuels need to be in
the correct stoves where they are cleanly combusted.<br class="">
<br class="">
4. On page 7 of the .pdf document, Smith comments regarding
getting the LPG into "...the poorest and remotest parts of the
country... where the density of connections is lower than
distributors have enjoyed up to now. Use of women's self-help
groups, rural cooperatives and other existing ogranizaitons will be
needed..." THAT comment is equally valid (or even more valid)
regarding the introduction of the CLEAN BURNING biomass stoves. And
in those areas, the biomass fuels are local, and do not require
trucks and then the manual carrying of metal LPG cylinders. <br class="">
<br class="">
5. On page 8, there is discussion of the government expenditure of
US$ 1.2 Billion for the PMUY programme for free LPG connections to
50 million households. "Indeed, it would seem that the programme
can soon claim to be a social investment, not a subsidy. Both come
from the taxpayer, but the former has a much different connotation
when focused on the poor."<br class="">
<br class="">
The same could be said if the stoves were the clean burning gasifier
stoves. No, stop, wait. it is not the same. The biomass
gasifiers can claim carbon credits and can actually PAY BACK the
investment, So the government might only be a guarantor of loans
that will be paid back to lenders such as the Asian Develpment
Bank. <br class="">
<br class="">
Please note that carbon credits with gasifier stoves are ALREADY
being earned in India (Deganga case study in West Bengal). Without
any money from the government (and therefore slower than it needs to
be.). Also, note that the gasifier stoves are in areas within
reach of the LPG distribution activities and the free LPG
equipment. The people will decide what they want to use.<br class="">
<br class="">
6. Finally, I am NOT against the LPG / PMUY programme. But I do
want recognition and appropriate support (organizational and
financial) for the expansion of the gasifier stove efforts in
India. Smith's chapter virtually ignores the viable alternative /
co-solution offered by the gasifier cookstoves. The issue is not
about starting the gasifier efforts. Efforts are already underway,
with proven results. The issue is to be supportive of the much
more rapid expansion of those gasifier stove efforts. <br class="">
<br class="">
May progress be made.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="m_2181914421431845942moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_2181914421431845942moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="m_2181914421431845942moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_2181914421431845942moz-cite-prefix">On 9/27/2017 12:04 PM, Kirk Smith
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="m_2181914421431845942WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">Below is the
first para of </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">Kirk R.
Smith, 2017, <i class="">The Indian LPG Programmes: Globally
Pioneering Initiatives</i>, Chapter 5 in Bibek Debroy
& Ashok Malik, eds, </span><u class=""><span style="font-size:14.0pt" class="">India@70; <a href="mailto:Modi@3.5" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0563c1" class="">Modi@3.5</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">, <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">Wisdom Tree,
New Delhi, 211 pp.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">The full
chapter can be downloaded from the website at the bottom. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt" class="">(and here: </span><a href="http://www.kirkrsmith.org/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0563c1" class="">http://www.kirkrsmith.org/
</span></a><br class="">
or directly at:
<a class="m_2181914421431845942moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.kirkrsmith.org/publications/2017/9/27/the-indian-lpg-programmes-globally-pioneering-initiatives" target="_blank">http://www.kirkrsmith.org/<wbr class="">publications/2017/9/27/the-<wbr class="">indian-lpg-programmes-<wbr class="">globally-pioneering-<wbr class="">initiatives</a>
)<br class="">
<a href="http://www.kirkrsmith.org/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0563c1" class=""></span></a>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="m_2181914421431845942WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span id="cid:part4.629CFD09.D0EE7A0E@ilstu.edu"><image002.png></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:none;padding:1.0pt 0in 1.0pt 0in" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">Kirk R. Smith,
MPH, PhD <</span><a href="mailto:krksmith@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:blue" class="">krksmith@berkeley.edu</span></a><span style="" class="">><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">Professor of
Global Environmental Heath<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">School of Public
Health, University of California Berkeley and<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">Collaborative Clean Air Policy Centre<span style="" class="">, India Habitat Centre, New Delhi <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">Indian cell
number: (91) 99-5873-8713; <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.kirkrsmith.org/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0563c1" class="">http://www.kirkrsmith.org/</span></a><span style="" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
If you are interested in receiving the messages directly from Kirk
smith, you can subscribe to the group as I have done.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">-- <br class="">
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups <a class="m_2181914421431845942moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stove@lists.berkeley.edu" target="_blank">"stove@lists.berkeley.edu"</a> group.<br class="">
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to <a href="mailto:stove+unsubscribe@lists.berkeley.edu" target="_blank" class="">stove+unsubscribe@lists.<wbr class="">berkeley.edu</a>.<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</font></span></div>
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