<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Nikhil et al:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:03 PM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Ron: <br class=""><br class="">WHO assignment of causes of death and attribution of risk factors is at the population level, not individual level. And different samples may have different exposures and responses. Summary measures don't prove a thing. Just ask WHO. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: There is no reason they should pay any attention to me. I know very little here - but I am planning on giving some cites soon.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Crispin is reporting on what seem to be total PM2.5 exposures - higher for men understandably because their occupational exposure or AAP exposure may be higher depending on where they go, and perhaps even at home if they handle fuel and stove cleaning more than women do. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: And on cigarette smoking. Re-read may two quoted sentences - which are ONLY about smoking by men.</b></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Also, WHO death and causes of death data are different from IHME data, and both recognize as much. So far, except for HAP, WHO has not produced any DALY computations, which seems to be entirely IHME hobby horse. To my knowledge, the NIH has not yet bought into the DALY computations, nor has the HHS ever argued that US health care budgeting be done on the basis of CRA methods using $/aDALY estimates for the US. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: Yes they are different - but from my perspective - amazingly close. They use different techniques and get very similar answers.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Why would we want to impose on Nigeria or Ethiopia what is not acceptable to the highest professional and political bodies in the US?</div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: This is not clear. I haven’t heard any imposition. I haven’t heard the US exceptions - which are?.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""> <br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""><br class="">PS: Not a single one of the three sentences you love has a factual basis, just modeled jugglery based on assuming that a standard indoor concentration applies to all the people who died in 2012, the attributability computed by assuming that all households cooking on solid fuels have equally strong exposures. <br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: List - Nikhil is talking about the last several sentences below - not about my note on Crispin’s mis-use of Kyrgiz health data any longer.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I see no connection between Nikhil’s (sole, non-supported) blasting of both WHO and IMHE methodology - with hundreds of experts involved in those - for decades. I contend that the experts are NOT doing what Nikhil claims they are. As mentioned, I will try to report soon on what WHO is doing in more detail. This is not an easy task with my non-medical background. But I fail to believe that Nikhil knows more on this than WHO.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">It did not fail my attention that what GACC says "One of the most dangerous" turned into "most dangerous" in your language. You treat men despicably; I speak as a man who cooked all the meals for my children and my mother too.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Sorry you took this personally. My last phrase in the same section (RWL1) below stated I couldn’t think of “ .<i class="">.any more dangerous activity</i>” - mean</b><b class="">ing cooking with a three stone fire. I still believe that. Your counter example?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""> <br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------ <br class=""></font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:05 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">Crispin (and adding back the list)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I don’t find your argument compelling.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I googled for “Fresh Air” and “stoves” - getting this site: <a href="http://www.theipcrg.org/freshair/files/28049616/16-02-12+FA+overview+KR+(1).pdf" target="_blank" class="">http://www.theipcrg.org/<wbr class="">freshair/files/28049616/16-02-<wbr class="">12+FA+overview+KR+%281%29.pdf</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>With these sentences there (middle part of Paragraph 2) - helping to rebut your comments below about Kyrgyz men and stoves: <i class=""> </i></div><div class=""><i class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"In addition, the Kyrgyz Republic has very high rates of tobacco
smoking, especially amongst men, which is the other major cause of lung diseases. WHO figures indicate that
in the Kyrgyz Republic 22% of deaths amongst men are caused by tobacco. "</i></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 6, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="m_9147897477137911230WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">Friends: Just a single point for which we have measurement data in homes:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><span class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class="">>>Without access to cleaner cookstoves and fuels, women endure incredible hardships. They are exposed to deadly smoke that kills over <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/impact-areas/health/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><b class=""><span style="color:rgb(38,125,132);text-decoration:none" class="">4 million people</span></b></a> every year and causes cancer, pneumonia, and lung disease. Women and children also must risk their safety, health, and sometimes their lives, to search for and collect fuel. In many cases, women walk for hours to find firewood and have to carry heavy loads, putting them at risk for physical and sexual attack, dehydration, and physical injuries.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial" class="">>RWL2: Again, I believe all 3 sentences - and especially the second on multi million annual deaths. Men are not doing their share in cooking.</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div></span><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">In Kyrgyzstan men have higher exposure to PM<sub class="">2.5</sub><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>than women and children. It is not correct to assume that cooking is the major source of PM<sub class="">2.5</sub><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>or that women are harmed more than men by it. The data, collected using Micro-PEMS (personal exposure meters) is available from Fresh Air though their final report will probably not be available until March 2018.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">It is erroneous assumptions like the above that undermine credibility. The fact that the ‘number of deaths’ is not actually seen or measured is also unhelpful. There are national death statistics, there are premature deaths created using them for the purpose of generating DALYs, and there are actual deaths from exposure which are unknown because no one investigates this systematically. Assuming that because “women do most of the cooking” that they are exposed to greater risks than men, and that men do not share in that exposure, and that changing the stove will ‘help women’ more than it helps men, is ‘taking a chance’.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">Similarly, in Ulaanbaatar putting people in apartments to reduce their exposure to ambient PM<sub class="">2.5</sub><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>has the effect of trapping cigarette smoke and cooking emissions in the home, creating PM<sub class="">2.5</sub><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>exposures far higher than are experienced on the street or in the ger districts.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">Regards<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="">Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm" class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W.Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.<wbr class="">net</a>]<span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>6-Oct-17 16:06<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Samer Abdelnour <<a href="mailto:samer.abdelnour@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">samer.abdelnour@gmail.com</a>>; Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tom Miles <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Women's empowerment<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div></div><span class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Dr. Abdelnour and list:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>1. I thank Tom Miles and Crispin for additions today also - but they were not looking at Samer’s question on Radha’s report (I stated below: “<i class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>I liked what I saw from Rudha Muthiah at <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-06-2015-adoption-of-clean-cookstoves-and-fuels-boosts-gender-equality.html" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="">http://cleancookstoves.org/<wbr class="">about/news/03-06-2015-<wbr class="">adoption-of-clean-cookstoves-<wbr class="">and-fuels-boosts-gender-<wbr class="">equality.html</a> . </i>I hope they and others will also answer Samer’s several questions.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>2. Q1: Why I liked the message. Short answer: It states much of what I would say on the coupling of the terms “stoves” and “gender equality”. Having five grand-children who are all girls is part of the reason. To save list members time and space I include her message all here - separated by my “why” inserts. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class="">Cooking is one of the most dangerous activities for girls and women in the developing world, where more than half the population still cooks food over open fires.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span class="m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class=""> <span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class="">RWL1: I like and believe “most dangerous”. This not limited to your expertise on “sexual attack” - where I claim zero expertise. I can’t think of a more dangerous activity.</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class="">Without access to cleaner cookstoves and fuels, women endure incredible hardships. They are exposed to deadly smoke that kills over <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/impact-areas/health/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class=""><b class=""><span style="color:rgb(38,125,132);text-decoration:none" class="">4 million people</span></b></a> every year and causes cancer, pneumonia, and lung disease. Women and children also must risk their safety, health, and sometimes their lives, to search for and collect fuel. In many cases, women walk for hours to find firewood and have to carry heavy loads, putting them at risk for physical and sexual attack, dehydration, and physical injuries.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span class="m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class=""><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial" class="">RWL2: Again, I believe all 3 sentences - and especially the second on multi million annual deaths. Men are not doing their share in cooking.</span></b></div></div></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div> </blockquote></div></div></div>
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