<div dir="ltr">Ron: <br><br>I am planning to complete a list of questions and data requests to WHO and will run it by the list here. I wrote you that I contacted IHME for their database and they referred me to WHO indoor air pollution people. I have now completed my review of WHO data of many types and have ascertained that "there is no there there." But let them show where is where. <br><br>a. I haven't checked on cigarette smoking data in years, but have no reason to take any claims at face value without the details. But exposure is one issue, application of IERs is another. It is the latter that leads Kirk Smith to claim "non-linearity", which I find to be an entirely untenable claim, without evidentiary basis. I won't go into tobacco toxicity. <br><br>b. Global DALY computations are irrelevant for national policy. There are very few national BOD studies, and on air pollution, there is just not enough sub-national detail for any of the exposures, leave alone HFU exposures. WHO just used estimates cooked up for households in India. If that is good enough for you, anything will be, so no point arguing. <br><br>c. By US, I only meant what I referred to -- DALY-based policy-making. US doesn't do it, why impose it on anybody? <br><br>I will have to let it go at that. I don't care for peer-reviewed science once science has been blatantly corrupted. Don't take my word for it; read Kirk Smith. <br><br>Nikhil </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Nikhil et al:<div><br></div><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>See inserts.</div><div><br></div><div><div><span class=""><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:03 PM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr">Ron: <br><br>WHO assignment of causes of death and attribution of risk factors is at the population level, not individual level. And different samples may have different exposures and responses. Summary measures don't prove a thing. Just ask WHO. <br></div></div></blockquote><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b>[RWL1: There is no reason they should pay any attention to me. I know very little here - but I am planning on giving some cites soon.</b><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>Crispin is reporting on what seem to be total PM2.5 exposures - higher for men understandably because their occupational exposure or AAP exposure may be higher depending on where they go, and perhaps even at home if they handle fuel and stove cleaning more than women do. <br></div></div></blockquote></span><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL2: And on cigarette smoking. Re-read may two quoted sentences - which are ONLY about smoking by men.</b></div><span class=""><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>Also, WHO death and causes of death data are different from IHME data, and both recognize as much. So far, except for HAP, WHO has not produced any DALY computations, which seems to be entirely IHME hobby horse. To my knowledge, the NIH has not yet bought into the DALY computations, nor has the HHS ever argued that US health care budgeting be done on the basis of CRA methods using $/aDALY estimates for the US. <br></div></div></blockquote><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b>[RWL3: Yes they are different - but from my perspective - amazingly close. They use different techniques and get very similar answers.</b></div><div><span class=""><b><br></b><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>Why would we want to impose on Nigeria or Ethiopia what is not acceptable to the highest professional and political bodies in the US?</div></div></blockquote><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b>[RWL4: This is not clear. I haven’t heard any imposition. I haven’t heard the US exceptions - which are?.</b><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"> <br><br><br>Nikhil<br><br>PS: Not a single one of the three sentences you love has a factual basis, just modeled jugglery based on assuming that a standard indoor concentration applies to all the people who died in 2012, the attributability computed by assuming that all households cooking on solid fuels have equally strong exposures. <br></div></div></blockquote></span><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL5: List - Nikhil is talking about the last several sentences below - not about my note on Crispin’s mis-use of Kyrgiz health data any longer.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I see no connection between Nikhil’s (sole, non-supported) blasting of both WHO and IMHE methodology - with hundreds of experts involved in those - for decades. I contend that the experts are NOT doing what Nikhil claims they are. As mentioned, I will try to report soon on what WHO is doing in more detail. This is not an easy task with my non-medical background. But I fail to believe that Nikhil knows more on this than WHO.</b></div><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>It did not fail my attention that what GACC says "One of the most dangerous" turned into "most dangerous" in your language. You treat men despicably; I speak as a man who cooked all the meals for my children and my mother too.<span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><br></div></div></blockquote></span><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL: Sorry you took this personally. My last phrase in the same section (RWL1) below stated I couldn’t think of “ .<i>.any more dangerous activity</i>” - mean</b><b>ing cooking with a three stone fire. I still believe that. Your counter example?</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>Ron</b></div><div><div class="h5"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"> <br><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="m_-4999490669587914951gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------ <br></font></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:05 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Crispin (and adding back the list)</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I don’t find your argument compelling.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I googled for “Fresh Air” and “stoves” - getting this site: <a href="http://www.theipcrg.org/freshair/files/28049616/16-02-12+FA+overview+KR+(1).pdf" target="_blank">http://www.theipcrg.org/fresh<wbr>air/files/28049616/16-02-12+<wbr>FA+overview+KR+%281%29.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>With these sentences there (middle part of Paragraph 2) - helping to rebut your comments below about Kyrgyz men and stoves: <i> </i></div><div><i><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"In addition, the Kyrgyz Republic has very high rates of tobacco
smoking, especially amongst men, which is the other major cause of lung diseases. WHO figures indicate that
in the Kyrgyz Republic 22% of deaths amongst men are caused by tobacco. "</i></div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 6, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Friends: Just a single point for which we have measurement data in homes:<u></u><u></u></span></div><span><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)">>>Without access to cleaner cookstoves and fuels, women endure incredible hardships. They are exposed to deadly smoke that kills over <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/impact-areas/health/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:rgb(38,125,132);text-decoration:none">4 million people</span></b></a> every year and causes cancer, pneumonia, and lung disease. Women and children also must risk their safety, health, and sometimes their lives, to search for and collect fuel. In many cases, women walk for hours to find firewood and have to carry heavy loads, putting them at risk for physical and sexual attack, dehydration, and physical injuries.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">>RWL2: Again, I believe all 3 sentences - and especially the second on multi million annual deaths. Men are not doing their share in cooking.</span></b><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div></span><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>In Kyrgyzstan men have higher exposure to PM<sub>2.5</sub><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>than women and children. It is not correct to assume that cooking is the major source of PM<sub>2.5</sub><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>or that women are harmed more than men by it. The data, collected using Micro-PEMS (personal exposure meters) is available from Fresh Air though their final report will probably not be available until March 2018.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>It is erroneous assumptions like the above that undermine credibility. The fact that the ‘number of deaths’ is not actually seen or measured is also unhelpful. There are national death statistics, there are premature deaths created using them for the purpose of generating DALYs, and there are actual deaths from exposure which are unknown because no one investigates this systematically. Assuming that because “women do most of the cooking” that they are exposed to greater risks than men, and that men do not share in that exposure, and that changing the stove will ‘help women’ more than it helps men, is ‘taking a chance’.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Similarly, in Ulaanbaatar putting people in apartments to reduce their exposure to ambient PM<sub>2.5</sub><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>has the effect of trapping cigarette smoke and cooking emissions in the home, creating PM<sub>2.5</sub><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>exposures far higher than are experienced on the street or in the ger districts.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Regards<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W.Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.<wbr>net</a>]<span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>6-Oct-17 16:06<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Samer Abdelnour <<a href="mailto:samer.abdelnour@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">samer.abdelnour@gmail.com</a>>; Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tom Miles <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Women's empowerment<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><span><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dr. Abdelnour and list:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>1. I thank Tom Miles and Crispin for additions today also - but they were not looking at Samer’s question on Radha’s report (I stated below: “<i><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span>I liked what I saw from Rudha Muthiah at <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-06-2015-adoption-of-clean-cookstoves-and-fuels-boosts-gender-equality.html" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://cleancookstoves.org/ab<wbr>out/news/03-06-2015-adoption-<wbr>of-clean-cookstoves-and-fuels-<wbr>boosts-gender-equality.html</a> . </i>I hope they and others will also answer Samer’s several questions.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>2. Q1: Why I liked the message. Short answer: It states much of what I would say on the coupling of the terms “stoves” and “gender equality”. Having five grand-children who are all girls is part of the reason. To save list members time and space I include her message all here - separated by my “why” inserts. <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)">Cooking is one of the most dangerous activities for girls and women in the developing world, where more than half the population still cooks food over open fires.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)"> <span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)">RWL1: I like and believe “most dangerous”. This not limited to your expertise on “sexual attack” - where I claim zero expertise. I can’t think of a more dangerous activity.</span></b><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 7.5pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;box-sizing:border-box;font-variant-ligatures:normal;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)">Without access to cleaner cookstoves and fuels, women endure incredible hardships. They are exposed to deadly smoke that kills over <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/impact-areas/health/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:rgb(38,125,132);text-decoration:none">4 million people</span></b></a> every year and causes cancer, pneumonia, and lung disease. Women and children also must risk their safety, health, and sometimes their lives, to search for and collect fuel. In many cases, women walk for hours to find firewood and have to carry heavy loads, putting them at risk for physical and sexual attack, dehydration, and physical injuries.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97)"><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-4999490669587914951m_9147897477137911230Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(97,97,97);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">RWL2: Again, I believe all 3 sentences - and especially the second on multi million annual deaths. Men are not doing their share in cooking.</span></b></div></div></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> </blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>