<div dir="ltr">Crispin: <div class="gmail_extra"><br>Trustworthiness does not come by claims alone. The force of law - and of underwriters of liability insurance policies - comes into play in countries with a reliable judiciary. Here in the US, OSHA, EPA certify, approve, or recognize UL and other certification bodies for example for <a href="https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=recognized_bodies_list.show_RCB_search_results">commercial steam cookers</a>. <br><br>I believe EPA did go to UL for certifying cookstoves. Jim Jetter, John Mitchell, or Susan Annenberg ought to be able to tell why that didn't work. From among any number of reasons, I can imagine liability considerations if in fact EPA did not have jurisdiction over cookstoves in the US and could not issue a regulation about it saying UL is an approved lab and can issue certification under xxx or yyy authority of a statute. <br><br>Maybe, after the ISO issues standards of performance from TC-285, US would incorporate them in law and then approve UL, Aprovecho, or other suitable body for testing and certification. Unlike some other countries or some of the states here, the Federal government can do only so much as authorized by law, not just do anything it is not explicitly prohibited from doing. <br><br>When a product manufacturer's claims fail, the buyer ought to have legal recourse in addition to merely voting with money. The manufacturer then cannot hide by merely appealing to UL certification. A court would hold UL liable if it made a finding that UL used improper protocol - not an "industry standard" - or wrong equipment. <br><br>Then too, a government may not bother with approving or recognizing a testing, certifying, or labeling organization if its citizens are not at risk. Free citizenry means able to rely on each other, but also able to go to a court of equity. <br><br>Yes, "<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,"Slate Pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:medium">Anyone can claim to be following any protocol they like." </span>What do you think - Gold Standard would be next, or GACC, or me? <br><br>UNF could. If it is an "international organization", it may be above US jurisdiction for certain liabilities. I will have to look up the IO law. <br><br><br><br><br>Nikhil<br><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif"> <br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 5:17 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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Dear Xavier</div>
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The ISO is not a testing organisation and does not issue certificates. No one can issue an 'ISO Certificate' because they don't exist. </div>
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The ISO does not check the validity of certificates issued by anyone. Anyone can claim to be following any protocol they like. What is at issue is if the organisation is able to give trustworthy results. That's why labs get certified like UL etc so people believe
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I think Tom Miles can comment on how a lab gets certified for a <i>particular</i> test like an EPA stove test. </div>
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The only available facts are that there is a Draft ISO standard available (now, not before). The LEMS hood system (which some labs use) was analysed by Berkeley and said to be able to rate stoves as high as 'tier 3.5'. That study is now three years old.
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Regards </div><span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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Crispin </div></font></span><div><div class="gmail-h5">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hello everyone,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am quite amazed that the Aprovecho is still claiming on its website to be able to deliver « ISO certificates » to clients who pay 3000 USD for a testing session.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://aprovecho.org/portfolio-item/stove-testing/" target="_blank">http://aprovecho.org/<wbr>portfolio-item/stove-testing/</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is there such thing as an ISO certificate when there exist no ISO standards for cookstoves?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To me, there are only three explanations possible:</p>
<p class="gmail-m_-5338037637166541155MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span>either the Aprovecho knows something we don’t</p>
<p class="gmail-m_-5338037637166541155MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span>either it is a fraudulent claim</p>
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</span></span></span>either it is a big mistake</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I might be missing something, anyone can shed a light?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I put Dean Still in copy as well, Dean, maybe you can clarify that?</p>
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Best,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Xavier </p></div></div></div></div></div>
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