<html><body><div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><div>You seem to be confusing the use of the constants with the derivation of the constants. You asked where the constants came from. I said it was a multifactorial regression analysis of a whole bunch of data from large boilers/furnaces with various fuels. There is, as far as I have been able to find out, no fundamental basis for the constants - just an arithmetic study which derived them.<br></div><div>Philip<br data-mce-bogus="1"></div><div><br></div><hr id="zwchr" data-marker="__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker="__HEADERS__"><b>From: </b>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispinpigott@outlook.com><br><b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 4:30:51 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula<br></div><br><div data-marker="__QUOTED_TEXT__">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Philip</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal">That is a name I didn’t see, though I have Mr Siegert from the 1930’as as a target.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe there wasn’t a Mr Siegert at all. He sounds so real.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The thing is, there are published tables of the A1, A2, Alpha and Beta constants for the fuel and another for the CO. There are multiple methods for doing it. Here is one:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:3.9375in;height:2.7083in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D352FC.9413FB10" width="378" height="260"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US">Here is another:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:3.9375in;height:4.3333in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image005.jpg@01D352FC.9413FB10" width="378" height="416"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The next one is from the instruction manual of a combustion analyser describing how it works. One Brownie point for each error readers can identify. Two Brownie points for knowing what the 2488 number represents.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:5.75in;height:5.0625in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image007.png@01D352FA.F8E07E80" width="552" height="486"></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The set is for an instrument that calculates the CO2 from the O2 and CO level. Unfortunately the Excess Air calculation is incorrect for any fuel containing oxygen (like biomass) so the rest are thrown off by that. Assuming the constants
(not given) are correct, the top formula is pretty good. It is more detailed than the ones in the EPA calculations and the Chinese national Standard (see corrections proposed for both in Zhang, Y 2014 cited previously).
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think we need to solve this generically and properly.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I finally traced Siegert to an Angewande Chemie (I think) of the 1930's. It was not, as we both hoped, based on any good chemistry, just correlations over many boilers
and fuels.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Philip</span></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr id="zwchr" width="100%" size="2" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 3:56:09 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Thanks for that advice Philip.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">We are using it for space heating stoves, using the following approach:</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Water heating for low pressure boiler, direct measurement of the flow rate [cc/sec 0.1] and [∆T
</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">˚</span><span style="color:black">C 0.01]</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Cooking heat gained, ditto, save that the working fluid in the pot and in a heat exchanger are tracked separately [J]</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Heat available from fuel fed [J]</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Calculated stack losses, Siegert with CO compensation [J]</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Space heating from the stove, either as a space heater or a low pressure boiler, inside or outside the heated envelope, is
</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Heat available – stack loss = space heating.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Heat available – stack loss – low pressure boiler water heating = space heating.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">CSA Method B415.1:2010 uses a ‘manually’ calculated method of getting the stack losses per gas, per 5 minutes. This is OK save that the moisture content of missing fuel is assumed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">In theory the B415.1 method can be turned into a simplified formula with constants but the spreadsheet (which is not normative, BTW) doesn’t do that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">I want to know how the constants presented in many tables were calculated. The big surprise is that it is so hard to find out. CAU students have been looking for three years. References and tables are everywhere
but no formulae. Maybe we are supposed to work it out ourselves, which is fine, but that does not tell “what they were thinking” at the time.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">The Siegert calculation without CO compensation can be significantly in error so the simple version is not recommendable. We know the constants are based on the fuel composition, which means they can be recalculated
in real time if we know what the decombusted ultimate analysis is, in real time. That is where I am headed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">There are multiple approaches taken to calculating the CO2<sub>Max</sub>, just as there are different ways to calculate excess air (most of which are wrong). This is a good time to bring some discipline to the
calculations, particularly with the (very good) B415.1 method accepted by Canada and the EPA and the committee is being reconstituted.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">It is full of combustion chemistry – I think you would approve!</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA" lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] On Behalf Of
<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" target="_blank">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a><br>
Sent: 1-Nov-17 09:16<br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula</span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">There are various versions in the old literature, but the list is short. Siegert is OK on decent sized boilers; no good for small appliances because it focuses on stack heat losses. Conduction/radiation losses
from small equipment are large enough to get wrong answers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Philip</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">----- Original Message -----</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">crispinpigott@outlook.com</span></a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">To: "Stoves (<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>)" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 3:34:43 PM</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Subject: [Stoves] Siegert anti-equilibrium formula</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Dear Friends</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Does anyone know of a reference to the Siegert anti-equilibrium formula?</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">While you are at it, does anyone have a good reference for the calculation of the Siegert variables from different fuels (not a table, the formulae)?</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Thanks</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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