<div dir="ltr">Dear Dr Anderson and Stovers,<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> ><span style="font-size:14px">Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million deaths.</span></blockquote><div><span style="font-size:14px">this is the link <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine</a> about it. many details. it is called "Gong Chan Feng( wind of Communism)" by my father and mother and their generation, called "public kitchen" movement also, if any smoke arise in any home, government officials would rush in and destroy the stove, pots or dishes, these kind of thing is forbidden in home, and all confiscated. in some villages, no one survived everyone died, in silence. if there were some smokeless clear-burn stove applied, maybe more people could survive? actually, technology doesn't matter at all, in a world of lies, technology only serves and helps lies.</span><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14px"> ></span><span style="font-size:14px">Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems that heavy >construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd Albi might be able to shed some light on this.</span></blockquote><div><span style="font-size:14px">yes, heavy is standard, and by DIY or by acquaintance artisan ( I think USA is the same). thin metal is too light too toppleable, light-weight metal burning stove is too danger for kids and woman and house, just in my opinion, many people might think the same way. something in TLUD stove is contrary to instinct, when something go wrong, it will be very frastrating.</span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:14px">>What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.</span></blockquote><div><br></div>I have no clear idea. maybe just some modifications on traditional family stove. insulation, a glass door for fuel-feed entry. adding a secondary air tube( <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1xhMmpsFA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1xhMmpsFA</a> ). I think these three will bring miraculous improvement. but it must be done by themselves or by their friends or artisan nearby, or maybe factory can manufacture and sell glass door, insulation material and air tube.<div><br></div><div>I am happy to be here.</div><div><br></div><div>best regards</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-11-30 23:05 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.<br>
<pre class="m_-7074298341829799201moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-7074298341829799201moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-7074298341829799201moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_-7074298341829799201moz-cite-prefix">On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove,
not heater. Too expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a
big number, very big, no one buy, not even one, in rural area.
For user, many uncertainties to use new type of stove. if free
of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert about this
stove, that might be fine.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove. Yes,
it is expensive, but expensive is a relative term. It could be
imported into America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here
would be so much higher and it would then be expensive here. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's
Champion Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is
something about family, a cultural thing, especially in
country side. In city, electricity or LPG is enough.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the
acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems
that heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd
Albi might be able to shed some light on this.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic
knowledge of stove design spread among people, and people help
each other.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have
difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the
factory context.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China,
more than 30 millions of people died because a stove
intervention movement. and people have memories.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Please provide more information about this statement about 30
million deaths.<br>
<br>
Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv. We appreciate your
insights.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-11-30 2:13 GMT+08:00 Nikhil
Desai <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Paul: <br>
<br>
It's not worth getting excited over this paper, though I
explain below I wholeheartedly commend the authors what
ought to have been Stoves Lesson 1 forty years ago.
(They even refer to Manibog 1984, which started me off
on formal research in stoves.)<br>
<br>
I note <br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">"The existing available
semi-gasifier biomass cookstoves all lacked
user-desired functions such as auto-ignition and flame
adjustment. Field visits to homes near Beijing
revealed that most homes with semi-gasifier stoves had
suspended use due to breakage or difficulty using them
for cooking. We identified several design features
that led to frequent breakage, namely cracking of the
inner combustion chamber wall and stove grate blockage
from slag that formed due to high temperature
combustion and inefficient ash removal. In addition,
most semi-gasifer cookstoves required fuel loading
from the top, a feature that made it impossible to add
fuel during cooking and, according to stove users,
greatly limited its functionality to meet daily
cooking needs."</blockquote>
<br>
Is it enough to say "Decades of disappointing stove
intervention programs highlight the need for new
approaches and development efforts"? Based on a study of
16 homes over a few weeks in summer-time with
"structured and semi-structured interviews with primary
cooks at 2 d and 6 weeks post-installation of the
prototype stoves"? <br>
<br>
The conclusion "Our proposed design strategy can be
applied to other stove development initiatives in China
and other countries." should be read in combination with
"The unique features of the particular semi-gasifier,
biomass cookstove discussed here need not be directly
transferable to other regions in China. Rather, the
user-centered, iterative engineering design process
presented could be replicated in other provinces and
regions to identify optimal stove design that is
responsive to the local context."<br>
<span><br>
</span>Still, the most relevant observation - which need
not have required this study - is simply this: <br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">" Stove designs (Tryner
et al 2014 and 2016) that over-emphasize technical
performance early in the stove development process
limit the extent to which user input obtained later in
the process—if sought—can lead to stove design
modification. The user-centered and iterative
engineering
design approach we present prioritized local
users’ preferences and aspirations, and sought to
combine user input with high technical performance.
Our results suggest that valuable engineering insights
are gained in the early stages of stove design through
targeted field-based data collection that yield
information
unattainable in the laboratory."</blockquote>
<br>
Which is why the WHO/ISO TC-285 exercise is so immature,
it needs to be aborted. <br>
<br>
I wonder who would digest and apply this lesson of
user-centered iterative engineering method. I suspect
you have, and perhaps others can claim such a trail of
experience instead of just reporting WBT-based
performance metrics as in the BAMG Catalog of stoves for
GACC. <br>
<br>
I am afraid this paper might end up like Manibog's and
various other stove evaluation reports that have
repeatedly said, essentially, "User matters." It is only
after determining the service standard (cooking and
other tasks desired by the user) and the objective of an
intervention (not necessarily limited to the efficiency
and pollutant emissions, and in some contexts not even
these) that a stove designer can go about designing a
product. <br>
<br>
Large programs of such research, guided by competent and
unbiased proponents., ought to have been generated when
GACC began. It is still not too late; GACC just needs to
be placed in a proper home, independent of its US
masters. <span class="m_-7074298341829799201gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Nikhil</font></span><span class="m_-7074298341829799201gmail-">
<div class="gmail_extra">
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at
11:04 AM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Ron,<br>
<br>
Not correct. The stove type was not TLUD.
It was essentially a trickle-feed forced air
pellet heater (as in the home heating units)
but made at the size of a cooking stove.
Nice work, but not a TLUD and no real chance
to make charcoal because the pellets are
burned to ash under the streams of forced
air. It might become very successful. Good
approach to designing changes. But also heavy
and expensive compared to the TLUD stoves that
are currently having great success in West
Bengal.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="m_-7074298341829799201gmail-m_-5064168201744374831m_5728890367327613837moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-7074298341829799201gmail-m_-5064168201744374831m_5728890367327613837moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-7074298341829799201gmail-m_-5064168201744374831m_5728890367327613837moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a> </pre>
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