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Stovers,<br>
<br>
The diplomatic comment is that there should be BOTH testing AND
stove acceptance.<br>
<br>
But if you have to choose only one, the acceptance wins, hands
down. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the
receipe. <br>
<br>
For a decade since 2005, I worked much on getting good test results
for the TLUD stoves. The NUMBERS. Oh yes, the NUMBERS. Stove
camps, comparisons, measurements, <br>
<br>
And I struggled to get a successful TLUD stove project somewhere,
anywhere. But in 2015, I found out about two things that happened
without my direct involvement.<br>
<br>
1. In 2015, the GACC and ESMAP published ESMAP Tech Report 007
about the status of cookstoves. There, in Figure 1, the gasifier
stoves were classified in the category of "Clean Cooking Solutions"
and were called ADVANCED. We can safely assume that appropriately
qualitied experts were making the decisions. It is no longer a case
of specific numbers and Tier x.x designations. Use the numbers if
you want to do so, and there are still some variations between the
various models of gasifiers, but the gasifiers have made it into the
big time, and the standard ICS have not. For clarity, I prepared
the "Classification of Stoves....." document that is faithful to the
ESMAP publication.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/">www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/</a>
If anyone disagrees about that, I refer them to the GACC and
ESMAP. And very favorable test results keep coming in. <br>
<br>
2. In late 2015 I found out about the TLUD stove project in
progress since 2012 in Deganga, India. I was a co-author on the
report ( <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/deganga2016">www.drtlud.com/deganga2016</a> ) about that highly successful
pilot study with 11,000 quite satisfied users of TLUD stoves. If
acceptance by users is an issue, I refer people to that report and
to visit the project areas in West Bengal. <br>
<br>
So, now the TLUD stoves have both aspects well supported. Testing
and stove acceptance. Of course there is still much more work to
be done. <br>
<br>
But the major effort has shifted to what Philip and Nikhil have
mentioned, specifically the search for funding for project
implementation. Not for testing. Not for a stove-acceptance
study. (although testing and acceptance are both closely watched in
every effort.)<br>
<br>
Still working on TLUD stoves. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/3/2017 10:09 AM, Nikhil Desai
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Philip:<br>
<br>
I had a different reason - one-time subsidies for capital costs
are easier to design and implement. The main issue is what
stoves (and pots if possible) are in fact used and whether the
running costs are affordable for a large segment. <br>
<br>
Much of the woodstove design work is stuck in fundamental deceit
of metrics and testing protocols that do not answer the question
whether the stove can be expected to be used. (I can design
capital subsidies for briquetting and pellet-making). <br>
<br>
Not a whole lot of good is going to be done by issuing some ISO
reports. Nor is SE4All going to come up with $4 billion a year I
read Kyte announced at CCF 2017. <br>
<br>
I don't see any tenable theory of change in current EPA/WHO work
including that in TC-285. Pending that, poor people will have to
spend $400 for a stove they can be proud of and can use. (EPA
wants to legislate coal out of existence around the world. Fat
chance.) <br>
<br>
Nikhil</div>
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<div><font
face="georgia,
serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US
+1) 202 568
5831</span><font
face="georgia,
serif"><br>
<i>Skype:
nikhildesai888</i><br>
</font><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 6:23 AM, Philip
Lloyd <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="m_-5211786844237339776WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">“</span><span
style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Capital cost
of the stove is a minor issue; the question is
whether the users like and use the stove.” A
community I studied carefully had a monthly
household income of <$100 yet strove to buy a
smokey cast iron coal-fired stove costing ~$400. It
met all their needs – including a higher social
status merely because they possessed such a stove.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Prof
Philip Lloyd</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Energy
Institute, CPUT</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PO
Box 1906</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bellville
7535</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tel
021 959 4323</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Cell
083 441 5247</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PA
Nadia 021 959 4330</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Stoves [mailto:<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr>bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nikhil Desai<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves
[Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering
approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and
development]</span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Paul: <br>
<br>
Capital cost
of the stove
is a minor
issue; the
question is
whether the
users like and
use the stove.
This is why
contextual
definitions
matter,
because pellet
production
costs can vary
greatly
depending on
the
feedstock. <br>
<br>
A high capital
cost stove can
be given
one-time
subsidy -
should be
given to the
distributor if
one exists;
could be given
to a bulk
producer - on
the condition
that the
stoves are
found useful
and used.
Metrics of
efficiency and
hourly
emission rates
are just
smoke. <br>
<br>
I am glad to
read "</span>it
is something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country
side." <span
style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Gives
the lie to
physics-only
theories of
supposed
"stove
science". <br>
<br>
Nikhil</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at
10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheng and all, (and a
mention of Todd Albi). see below.<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD</pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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