<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas}
@font-face
{font-family:Georgia}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline}
pre
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{font-family:Consolas}
span.EmailStyle19
{font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D}
.MsoChpDefault
{}
@page WordSection1
{margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt}
div.WordSection1
{}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-ZA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
In the survey of potential stove users conducted in Gauteng 2004, "Pride of ownership" scored above price and fuel consumption in a ranking of features. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Philip confirms this aspect of reality in the South African market. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Regards </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Crispin </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">“</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the users like and use the stove.”
A community I studied carefully had a monthly household income of <$100 yet strove to buy a smokey cast iron coal-fired stove costing ~$400. It met all their needs – including a higher social status merely because they possessed such a stove.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Prof Philip Lloyd</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Energy Institute, CPUT</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">PO Box 1906</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Bellville 7535</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Tel 021 959 4323</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Cell 083 441 5247</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">PA Nadia 021 959 4330</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nikhil Desai<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 2, 2017 1:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass cookstove design and development]</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Paul: <br>
<br>
Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter, because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the feedstock. <br>
<br>
A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of efficiency and hourly emission rates are just
smoke. <br>
<br>
I am glad to read "</span>it is something about family, a cultural thing, especially in country side." <span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Gives the lie to physics-only theories of supposed "stove science". <br>
<br>
Nikhil</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD</pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C62b2f8c8c9bf4c43283c08d53a40c4b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478972205853695&sdata=PbkCfNM6hUmnmoyj1uEbhKXufYiC9MFTSc3ueAqhjNU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new type of stove.
if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert about this stove, that might be fine.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove. Yes, it is expensive, but expensive is a relative term. It could be imported into America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much higher and it would
then be expensive here. <br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is enough.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems that heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd Albi might be able to shed some light
on this.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove design spread among people, and people help each other.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory context.<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30 millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people have memories.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million deaths.<br>
<br>
Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv. We appreciate your insights.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">best regards </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>