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Cheng,<br>
<br>
Your experiences are highly interesting. Let's review the situation
(as far as it is known from the messages).<br>
<br>
You have been using a homemade TLUD stove for less than one month.
And you use it inside a room that is sufficiently enclosed that any
emissions must exit through a window. You are in China, and the
past month with stove usage was a November. Most of China has
reasonably sealed housing to keep out the winter weather. You are
not an experienced user of TLUD stoves. And we do not know what
your are using as fuel.<br>
<br>
NOBODY should be using ANY Do-It-Yourself stove in such a
situation. In a reasonably sealed residence, nobody should be using
any biomass stove indoors without an adequate chimney. <br>
<br>
I am glad that you did not die or suffer permanent damage. I have
never before asked anyone to stop working with TLUD stoves, but I
suggest that you stop. <br>
<br>
Paul Anderson<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/2/2017 9:14 PM, lh cheng wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAK2R_NcrXiZbTXtEAESdoy-ASu7bE2KTW-mhMJ5a-kPF38GC5A@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Dr,
<div>I was just thinking the case in India ( I had thought the
number is 1,1000) , that evidence is very strong. In my case,
I have suffered one gas poison. dizzy and paralyzed a little
bit for 10 hrs, I only use TLUD less than 1 month, many times
big smoke go out from my window, my neighbor is very nice not
calling the police. I can't imagine how a housewife deal with
the hard situation, maybe DIY is not a good idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Cheng, see below<span
class=""><br>
<pre class="m_-1274863512042111455moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-1274863512042111455moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-1274863512042111455moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
</span><span class="">
<div class="m_-1274863512042111455moz-cite-prefix">On
12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this
fragile concept comes from a book "Antifragile",
written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr
Anderson, he is a Doctor and professor. He have
a good understanding of man-made artificial
system, have deep insight of the weakness of
some man-made system, and he find a good way to
make money (of no small amount ) through it from
financial market. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high
efficient, beautiful, but there were big risks,
which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the
surface, when something wrong happened
eventually, inevitably, no one can afford it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice,
but try to make something clear, maybe we can
find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a
direction to improve it, and help the user to
use it in a safer way.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>TLUD stove separates gas combustion from
gasification, and is batch-feed, this
combination create efficiency and convenience,
but also big risk. many thing can cause the fire
( gas combustion ) go out, too much or too
little gas, too much or too little air,
temperature too low, (too much or too little
prmary air, cause too much or too little gas,
both can lead to extinguish of the secondary
combustion), too much moisture in the fuel. once
the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy,
poisonous, and the fuel is burning inside the
inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to put
out the first combustion. it is very dangerous
and bad situation for housewife, neighbors
scared by the big smoke, people even can got
killed by the poisonous gas. (when water can't
low down the charcoal temperature, water H2O can
be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span> The paragraph above does not express the reality
of 40,000 TLUD stove users living closely together in We
s Bengal, India. the concerns you raise can be
presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality. You
are writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years
ago. I heard that over and over. It is in the big
New Yorker magazine articles. Those people are not
saying such things any more, at least not publically or
where their comments could leak back to me. <br>
<span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Traditional stove have no such thing, because
it is not batch-feeding, not burning in a tight
closed space. and safer in unexpected situation.
it is robust. that's why people prefer it over
TLUD stove maybe.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this
message, not thinking it thoroughly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span> I accept your statement that you are basically
not yet well informed or with much experience. Stick
with the TLUD stoves. They are the wave of the
future. They can become better, and that is where you
and others will eventually make important
contributions. -- And there will be many who will
sit on the sidelines. --- Progress in the past
few years has been great, and getting better all the
time. <br>
<br>
I'll sign this message to show my full bias. <br>
<br>
Dr TLUD<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>best regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-12-02 7:50
GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div
class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-m_-5662447623776830519gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font
face="georgia,
serif">Paul: <br>
<br>
Capital cost
of the stove
is a minor
issue; the
question is
whether the
users like and
use the stove.
This is why
contextual
definitions
matter,
because pellet
production
costs can vary
greatly
depending on
the
feedstock. <br>
<br>
A high capital
cost stove can
be given
one-time
subsidy -
should be
given to the
distributor if
one exists;
could be given
to a bulk
producer - on
the condition
that the
stoves are
found useful
and used.
Metrics of
efficiency and
hourly
emission rates
are just
smoke. <br>
<br>
I am glad to
read "</font>it
is something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country
side." <font
face="georgia,
serif">Gives
the lie to
physics-only
theories of
supposed
"stove
science". <span
class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
</font></span></font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span
class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-">
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov
30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Cheng
and all, (and a mention of
Todd Albi). see below.<br>
<pre class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-m_-5662447623776830519gmail-m_-1066852585149645021moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-m_-5662447623776830519gmail-m_-1066852585149645021moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-m_-5662447623776830519gmail-m_-1066852585149645021moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div
class="m_-1274863512042111455gmail-m_-5662447623776830519gmail-m_-1066852585149645021moz-cite-prefix">On
11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh
cheng wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Another Chinese
little project. Surely,
it is cookstove, not
heater. Too expensive,
1500RMB (230 USD), in
rural area, a big
number, very big, no one
buy, not even one, in
rural area. For user,
many uncertainties to
use new type of stove.
if free of charge, a
trustworthy friend who
is an expert about this
stove, that might be
fine.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I was wondering about the
price of that pellet burner
stove. Yes, it is expensive,
but expensive is a relative
term. It could be imported
into America where $230 is
inexpensive, but the price
here would be so much higher
and it would then be expensive
here. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>stove thing should be
open-source ( just like
Dr Anderson's Champion
Stove ), DIY, or made by
acquaintance, it is
something about family,
a cultural thing,
especially in country
side. In city,
electricity or LPG is
enough.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Is there any prospect in China
for DIY. And what would be
the acceptance of a stove made
with thin metal?
Generalizing, it seems that
heavy construction of stoves
is the standard in China.
Todd Albi might be able to
shed some light on this.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>a good approach for
stove design maybe is
that, basic knowledge of
stove design spread
among people, and people
help each other.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
What do you have in mind?
in the context of China? I
have difficulty imagining
stove design work in China
outside of the factory
context.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>concerning "stove
intervention", during
1959-1961 in China, more
than 30 millions of
people died because a
stove intervention
movement. and people
have memories.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Please provide more
information about this
statement about 30 million
deaths.<br>
<br>
Welcome to the world of the
Stoves Listserv. We
appreciate your insights.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best regards </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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