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Gordon,<br>
<br>
I changed the Subject line because this is no longer about
<blockquote type="cite">Re: [Stoves] China and cookstoves [Was Re: A
user-centered, iterative engineering approach for advanced biomass
cookstove design and development]</blockquote>
And I included the Biochar Listser. Discussions can be separate
on each list.<br>
<br>
The issue does relate to Stoves because it impacts the economics of
how to get the stoves paid for.<br>
<br>
You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">the biochar that is produced from our TLUD
appliances is worth many times more that the biomass feedstock
going in. This is true on a triple-bottom-line basis, </blockquote>
and
<blockquote type="cite">In the U.S. we have the numbers to show that
we can make a business out of this approach. </blockquote>
Please provide more info. I hope that "the numbers" can be shared.
Currently are they on paper, and not in some business that must
protect its investments? <br>
<br>
I am writing as a friendly believer in what you have written about
TLUD technology and char / biochar. I want to be supportive, and
would like more info. And as you point out, there are at least two
main perspectives: developed societies (such as USA) and developing
societies (of great interest to me and some others.)<br>
<br>
And how can there be a game plan to put the proposal to the test?
Issues of scale will be very important, and big money might be
essential. Please enlighten me (us).<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/4/2017 11:28 AM, Gordon West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A644CFFC-16AD-475B-8E1B-5CC1AD49839E@rtnewmexico.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
I want to support Ron in his point and to provide a scenario to
help to explain it. We are a relatively new ‘stoves’ R&D
company and manufacturer operating in the U.S. Our business plan
is not directly relevant to the markets that are the major focus
of this list, but there are some significant developments in our
world carrying what should be a disruptive lesson for biomass
cooking strategies.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The basic lesson, which we are creating a business
model for, is this: the biochar that is produced from our TLUD
appliances is worth many times more that the biomass feedstock
going in. This is true on a triple-bottom-line basis, looking at
direct economics, social benefits, and environmental benefits -
note that global economic systems generally acknowledge only
only transactions involving sale for currency as “making money”
even though the other non-monetized benefits result in greater
lifecycle economic good than the direct sales do.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">First let me make the distinction between fuel and
feedstock - this is a very important point. Fuel is burned for
energy; feedstock is used to make other products. In our TLUD
process, biomass is always feedstock, from which is produced
char and a flammable gas (a fuel). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">One problem with micro-production of biochar
(cookstoves and heaters in households) is that the char does not
have enough value to cover the cost of aggregation and sale to
existing markets - and existing markets are poorly developed,
partly because of a lack of supply. Our solution is to establish
community scale biochar+heat systems that acquire local biomass
for feedstock, process it into char and heat, use the heat to
dry more incoming biomass, and densify it into pellet or briquet
feedstock. The densified and bagged feedstock can then be
distributed to micro-producers to make heat for cooking or other
uses while making more char. We plan to give the micro-producers
<i class="">free dried and densified feedstock</i> in trade for
their char. “We”, in this case, will be a regional biochar
cooperative that will handle technology distribution and
operation, biomass processing and feedstock distribution, and
biochar aggregation and marketing. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This approach solves many problems - the households
get free feedstock, saving significant amounts of time and
money; the feedstock is of a much higher quality - it is dry and
consistent and dense, making stove operation safer and better;
the char is aggregated into a marketable form; carbon is
sequestered; adding CO2 to the atmosphere is avoided; soils and
biomass productivity is enhanced; and water is saved. There are
many more benefits, but those are some top examples.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In the U.S. we have the numbers to show that we can
make a business out of this approach. In more distressed areas,
governments and NGOs, who have more of an interest in the
non-monetized triple-bottom-line benefits, could set up the core
biochar+heat facilities to produce free feedstock for
micro-producers and manage the char collection. The subsidies to
do this would actually be long-term investments, and not
bandaids like so many ‘help for the poor’ efforts are.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Burning local biomass to ash in cookstoves for heat
does not really solve any fundamental lifecycle problems, no
matter how cleanly it is done.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Gordon West</div>
<div class="">The Trollworks</div>
<div class="">503 N. “E” Street</div>
<div class="">Silver City, NM 88061</div>
<div class="">575-537-3689</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><i class="">An entrepreneur sees problems
as the seeds of opportunity.</i></div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 3, 2017, at 10:36 PM, Ronal W. Larson
<<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Nikhil:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
hope you (and almost everybody on this list) will take
the time to ask a few low-income women the
below-question that I have not seen asked. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> If
you could imagine yourself having a batch stove that
cost the same and used the same fuel whether you (now
low income) would rather make money or not, what would
your own answer be?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>None
of your answer below gets at what I am asking. I
repeat; I have not seen any survey with this
question. I have talked to many people about this for
twenty-plus years individually - and I have gotten the
answer that I want others to get.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Obviously
I am asking this so as to get char in the ground.
Obviously for climate reasons. But soil NPP
improvement also occurs - without conflict. All this
is obvious on the sister biochar list. I am trying to
get this list aware of biochar as a positive part of
stoves and cooking. It is of no help to hear your
answers about fuel collection, making observations,
cooks making money with kerosene stoves, non-wood
stoves taking over, large-scale cooking , etc. None
of your answers get at the question of the value in
making char while one cooks. It is not a difficult
question to answer.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:48 PM, Nikhil
Desai <<a
href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Ron: <br class="">
<br class="">
That is an interesting question but the answer
has to be compared to alternative means of
making money. <br class="">
<br class="">
Reduction in fuel collection time is one form
of saving; the time freed up can be used for
higher-priority activity, including education,
child care, or employment. <br class="">
<br class="">
In other words, answers to this question can
only be interpreted with additional,
context-specific information or questions. In
and of itself, it is a meaningless question. <br
class="">
<br class="">
There are indirect ways of gathering people's
priorities -- observing what they in fact do. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Here is what I have observed over the last
several decades: <br class="">
<br class="">
1. In India, housewives in cities and towns
have indeed made money by cooking, though on
kerosene and LPG/electricity and preparing
dry/canned/frozen foods as well as fresh meals
and snacks for sale. <br class="">
<br class="">
2. Roughly a billion people in the developing
world have moved away from collecting
woodfuels and cooking all the meals for family
consumption. <br class="">
<br class="">
3. Family size and composition, location,
alternatives and priorities in use of women's
time have changed. <br class="">
<br class="">
4. Charcoaling from own or others' trees is an
income-generating activity, but whether a cook
wants to spend her time to do the same is open
to question. She might well want to do for
selling locally as fuel but not to some
central authority for biochar. <br class="">
<br class="">
Your question may be better directed to
commercial, large-scale cooks, who are
probably easier customers for biomass and coal
stoves anyway compared to poor households.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Nikhil<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""
clear="all">
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
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<div class=""><font
class=""
face="georgia,
serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US +1) 202
568 5831</span><font
class=""
face="georgia,
serif"><br
class="">
<i class="">Skype:
nikhildesai888</i><br
class="">
</font><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
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<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017
at 3:39 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"
class=""><<a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Paul:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_529151126071644304Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
have yet to see on ANY stove
questionnaire: “How important is
making (more than saving) money when
you cook?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 3, 2017,
at 8:41 AM, Paul Anderson
<<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">Crispin,</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">Good point.</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">I wonder how
ofter "pride of ownership"
is included in the
evaluations. <span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">I hope that such
a quesiton can be asked to
the 40,000 (or a sample)
users of the Champion TLUD
stove in West Bengal. <span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">About surveys and
questionnaires and
interviews, (whether for
stoves or other topics),
questions keep being
changed, so comparison
between results are often
difficult or meaningless
because of wording. Are
there some common (shared)
questions that tend to be
used in stove surveys? <span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"
class="">Paul</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<pre class="m_529151126071644304moz-signature" cols="72" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div
class="m_529151126071644304moz-cite-prefix"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">On
12/3/2017 5:35 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">In the survey
of potential stove users
conducted in Gauteng
2004, "Pride of
ownership" scored above
price and fuel
consumption in a ranking
of features. </div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">Philip confirms
this aspect of reality
in the South African
market. </div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">Regards </div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class="">Crispin </div>
<div
style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div
class="m_529151126071644304WordSection1">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class="">“</span><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class="">Capital cost of the stove is
a minor issue; the
question is
whether the users
like and use the
stove.” A
community I
studied carefully
had a monthly
household income
of <$100 yet
strove to buy a
smokey cast iron
coal-fired stove
costing ~$400. It
met all their
needs – including
a higher social
status merely
because they
possessed such a
stove.</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class=""> </span></p>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class="">Prof
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class="">Tel 021
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class="">PA Nadia
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style="margin:0cm
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New Roman',serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class=""></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class=""></span></p>
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style="margin:0cm
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New Roman',serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
class=""> </span></p>
<div
style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0cm 0cm" class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"
class=""><b
class=""><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"
class=""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class=""
lang="EN-US"><span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a
class="m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr
class="">bioenergylists.org</a>]<span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Nikhil
Desai<br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
December 2, 2017
1:50 AM<br
class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Paul Anderson<br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of
biomass cooking
stoves<br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves]
China and
cookstoves [Was
Re: A
user-centered,
iterative
engineering
approach for
advanced biomass
cookstove design
and development]</span></div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> </p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class="">Paul: <br class="">
<br class="">
Capital cost
of the stove
is a minor
issue; the
question is
whether the
users like and
use the stove.
This is why
contextual
definitions
matter,
because pellet
production
costs can vary
greatly
depending on
the
feedstock. <br
class="">
<br class="">
A high capital
cost stove can
be given
one-time
subsidy -
should be
given to the
distributor if
one exists;
could be given
to a bulk
producer - on
the condition
that the
stoves are
found useful
and used.
Metrics of
efficiency and
hourly
emission rates
are just
smoke. <br
class="">
<br class="">
I am glad to
read "</span>it
is something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country
side." <span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif"
class="">Gives
the lie to
physics-only
theories of
supposed
"stove
science". <br
class="">
<br class="">
Nikhil</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">On
Thu, Nov 30,
2017 at 10:05
AM, Paul
Anderson <<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">Cheng
and all,
(and a mention
of Todd Albi).
see below.<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Website: <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C62b2f8c8c9bf4c43283c08d53a40c4b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478972205853695&sdata=PbkCfNM6hUmnmoyj1uEbhKXufYiC9MFTSc3ueAqhjNU%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">On
11/29/2017
10:15 PM, lh
cheng wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">Another
Chinese little
project.
Surely, it is
cookstove, not
heater. Too
expensive,
1500RMB (230
USD), in rural
area, a big
number, very
big, no one
buy, not even
one, in rural
area. For
user, many
uncertainties
to use new
type of stove.
if free of
charge, a
trustworthy
friend who is
an expert
about this
stove, that
might be fine.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">I was
wondering
about the
price of that
pellet burner
stove. Yes,
it is
expensive, but
expensive is a
relative term.
It could be
imported into
America where
$230 is
inexpensive,
but the price
here would be
so much higher
and it would
then be
expensive
here. <span
class="m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">stove
thing should
be open-source
( just like Dr
Anderson's
Champion Stove
), DIY, or
made by
acquaintance,
it is
something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country side.
In city,
electricity or
LPG is enough.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">Is
there any
prospect in
China for DIY.
And what
would be the
acceptance of
a stove made
with thin
metal?
Generalizing,
it seems that
heavy
construction
of stoves is
the standard
in China.
Todd Albi
might be able
to shed some
light on this.<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">a
good approach
for stove
design maybe
is that, basic
knowledge of
stove design
spread among
people, and
people help
each other.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">What
do you have in
mind? in
the context of
China? I
have
difficulty
imagining
stove design
work in China
outside of the
factory
context.<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">concerning
"stove
intervention",
during
1959-1961 in
China, more
than 30
millions of
people died
because a
stove
intervention
movement. and
people have
memories.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">Please
provide more
information
about this
statement
about 30
million
deaths.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Welcome to the
world of the
Stoves
Listserv. We
appreciate
your insights.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif"
class="">best
regards </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset
class="m_529151126071644304mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
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