<div dir="ltr">Tom: <br><br>The <a href="http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/pnaax807.pdf">Hyman (1985)</a> paper was financed by ATI and makes the claim <br><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">"The KREDP jiko combines features of the traditional jiko and
Thai liner stoves. These stoves have three other components: 1) a
fired ceramic liner, 2) an inserted grate, and 3) an insulating
layer between the cladding and the liner, and also on the bottom of
the ash box. The metal cladding protects the liner and supports the
pots while the liner reduces heat transfer losses from radiation.
The grate aerates the combustion bed and channels heat toward the
pot. The insulating layer increases the lifetime of the cladding by
reducing its exposure to heat...."</blockquote><br>Can you help track down Sam Baldwin? Last I knew, he was doing some climate policy work for USDOE. I also recognize Ton de Wilde, whom I met several times nearly ten years ago, and Tony Pryor some 35 years ago. <br><br>Steven Karekezi or Mark Hankins may remember this. My impression is, Robert wasn't involved at that stage. I do not remember coming across his name at the time of Manibog's 1983 ARE paper on improved stove programs. <br><br>The <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02904586">Dunn et al. (1982)</a> paper you cited made some excellent common-sense points validated by thoughtful expertise: <br><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">"What is a good stove ?<br> <br>A good stove will-<br>(i) cook well---depends on:
nature of food,
quantity of food,
method of cooking,
cooking utensils<br>
(ii) be economical in fuel use,<br>
(iii) have low cost and long life,<br>
(iv) use local material,<br>
(v) be safe in use,<br>
(vi) be acceptable to local people.<br>
<br>To achieve the appropriate design and produce the fuel saving stoves, the basic
concept of'a good stove' will depend on many factors, not only technical but cultural
as well.<br>
<br>A wide range ofefficiencies for traditional and improved stoves are quoted in the
literature and it is not easy to make meaningful comparisons between the various
designs. It is essential that the measurements should reflect accurately the traditional
cooking practice. "</blockquote><br>Maybe Cecil, Crispin and I are old men with long memories and devoid of admiration for modern fancies, but I for one don't think much has changed in 35 years except the emphasis on using local material. The worldwide lowering of trade and information barriers has meant that "local materials" have changed and also that imported, factory-produced portable stoves may also meet all the other requirements. <br><br>Nikhil<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Tom Miles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-248951884244104854WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">We hope that Robert recovers. I have had many informative exchanges with him over the years. He may have informed this group about the Thai bucket and the KCJ. I’ll have to look at the early archives (1996-2000). <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Teddy for the KCJ history. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">See also: <a href="http://www.solutions-site.org/node/50" target="_blank">http://www.solutions-site.org/<wbr>node/50</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The Eindhoven group may be able to shed some light on the origins of the KCJ. It wasn’t that long ago (2006?) that Dean Still gathered Piet Visser, and KK Prasad, and P Verhaart at an ETHOS meeting. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">This takes us back to some thoughtful work on stoves:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">What Makes People Cook with Improved Biomass Stoves? A Comparative International Review of Stove Programs Douglas F. Barnes, Keith Openshaw, Kirk R. Smith, and Robert van der Plas, WORLD BANK TECHNICAL PAPER NUMBER 242 ENERGY SERIES. 1994<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There may be a clue in a 1982 review of the Thai ceramic stove cited in that review:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02904586" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/<wbr>article/10.1007/BF02904586</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The performance of Thai charcoal stove <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">P D DUNN, P SAMOOTSAKORN and N JOYCE Department of Engineering, University of Reading~ U.K. Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Engg. Sci.), Vol. 5, Pt. 4, December 1982, pp. 361-372. t~) Printed in India<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Or in Keith Openshaw’s 1979 review:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Openshaw, Keith. 1979. "A Comparison of Metal and Clay Charcoal Cooking Stoves." Paper presented at the Conference on Energy and Environment in East Africa, Nairobi, Kenya.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">And in 1982:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Openshaw, Keith. 1982. "The Development of Improved Cooking Stoves for Urban and Rural Households in Kenya." Stockholm: The Beijer Institute, Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There were several projects underway in Kenya during the 1980-1987 time period. A few people I have met have told stories about the early development of the KCJ. One Canadian told me that shortly after it was introduced it appeared in all sizes in the markets without regard to dimensions and air hole suited to the size or capacity. A ceramicist from Eugene, Oregon, contributed at some point. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The Barnes et. al paper has a long list of stoves projects that were active at the time. It was cited in a paper presented by Tom Reed and Ron Larson in 1996 at a thermochemical conference in Banff, Canada. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/content/wood-gas-stove" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/content/wood-gas-stove</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">My conversations with Tom, Ron, and Mark Bryden at that conference led to the creation of this discussion list as an outgrowth of earlier (1994) bioenergy and gasification lists that I hosted. Ron became the list moderator and the Kenya group was active. Early discussions on the list, which Robert contributed to, included stoves like the KCJ and Thai bucket. Mark, Dean, and Larry Winiarsky started ETHOS in about 2000, the same year as the Pune stoves conference hosted by the Karves.) We look forward to continuing the stoves “conversation” at ETHOS Jan 26-28.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.ethoscon.com/2018-registration/" target="_blank">http://www.ethoscon.com/2018-<wbr>registration/</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Tom<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-248951884244104854__MailEndCompose"><u></u> <u></u></a></p><span></span><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Stoves [mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr>bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Y. Iwan BASKORO<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 03, 2017 9:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Thai Bucket Stove<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Crispin,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps Robert took part in the development of Thai Bucket Stove if he was in the region on that period. However I do not have any document that mention his name and involvement - the oldest report I have dated 1985, a report of USAID on improved cookstove development in Thailand.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You are right he is a hard worker but almost silent. Wish him recovered very soon from his malaria... <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">iwan<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Thanks Nikhil and Iwan<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">I heard about the Thai Bucket stove (in its current incarnation) from Robert, meaning he is the one who told me (?) or someone who was present – maybe it was Tig – that Robert was the one who designed it. Maybe he adapted what he found. I do recall it was said to have been in ’82 which aligns with the things mentioned below. 1982 was also the year things got going on test methods with the French Bois De Feu and Eindhoven Group getting going full steam. Piet Visser and all that: KK Prasad and Peter Verhaart.<span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">That was the year we started making improved stoves at TATU – Cecil and I – for cooking staff meals. Transkei Appropriate Technology Unit – also still alive in a new form. <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">This leads me to bring the unfortunate news that Robert is in grave condition in the Netherlands in ICU with malaria contracted a couple of weeks ago. He is an under-sung hero of the stove community, quietly, some say too quietly, organizing things and taking risks. One turned out to be a bit too risky. He was in Central Africa last month living on the edge (again). <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">Nikhil: can you narrow down the event regarding funding at all? I am writing something in answer to a question on C4D about the best way to bring funding into product development instead of product dissemination. It turns out, in historical perspective, that the stoves which are the most widely disseminated were nearly <i>all</i> designed on the public dime – little that there is of that. I find that amazing. Truly innovative stoves that became popular were not artisanal developments. I don’t think that it is widely recognized.<span lang="EN-CA"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">++++++<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Crispin:<br><br>Could be ESMAP funding, for followup on earlier USAID work .<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">One 1993 <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.362.7044%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=ZkQKByVDf0FhEHng2qS51HFVMc9RFpPIqdx0rXgpEh0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">paper</a> that van der Plas was a co-author to only mentions "In Thailand, improved stoves development started in the private sector; this is true of other countries in Asia as well." It refers to several ESMAP-funded stove projects in Thailand. (Annes 2: Projects Surveyed for Study.)<br><br>This seems to be the most widely cited paper on the subject of what makes biomass stoves usable and used, but it is nearly 25 years ago. So much for the due diligence of the stove program financiers. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">I had no idea that it was the inspiration for Kenyan Ceramic Jiko (KCJ), as reported <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2F~mauzeral%2Fwws402f_s03%2FJP.Shena.Elrington.pdf&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=eRQQgR3ee0F1L58IwSCD77Rn0FvijZJVdvNKrITo6ys%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">here</a>: " The original design for the KCJ was inspired by an improved stove used throughout Thailand. This stove, the ‘Thai bucket,’ has an insulating liner composed of ceramic that was cemented from the top to the bottom of the... "<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Reducing Indoor Air Pollution in Africa: A Review of Two Successful Intervention Programs and Recommendations for Future Intervention Efforts Shena M. Elrington May 2, 2003. Looks like a student paper for WWS 402f: Sustainable Development- Can We Do It? Prof. Denise L. Mauzerall.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">I made an interesting discovery -- according to <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yumpu.com%2Fen%2Fdocument%2Fview%2F7385282%2Fimproved-biomass-cooking-stove-for-household-use-pdf-101-mb-&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C53b235d54a704acb7c2508d53a1689a9%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478790820191146&sdata=Lu2sVvKJmdGNsTwtHQssj3%2B1bNB8ErbwjkRIkkwj4sk%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">this</a> 1982 paper submitted to the National Energy Administration, the Thai bucket stove is thought to have originated in China and could have been brought to Thailand a thousand years earlier (p. 33-34).<br><br>The report also says (p. 44) that Meta Systems Inc. Thai Group reviewed efficiency of various Thai bucket stoves in 1982. I was at Meta Systems in 1980-1 and learned my biomass balance work and cookstoves projects there. I probably know some folks who worked on that project. <br><br>I think the recommendations of this report 35 years ago (on p. 241-2) are still relevant. <br><br>Reinventing the wheel keeps subsequent generations employed in the good cause. <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><br>Nikhil<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Dear Friends<br><br>The Thai Bucket Stove was designed by Robert van der Plas in 1982. Does anyone know who funded that development? Did he do it as part of a project, or on his own?<br><br>Thanks<br><span class="m_-248951884244104854m7815190802534871261gmail-hoenzb"><span style="color:#888888">Crispin</span></span><span style="color:#888888"><br></span> <u></u><u></u></span></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> <u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Yohanes Iwan Baskoro</span></strong><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">mobile +62 81 328 430 455</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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