<div dir="ltr">Paul: <br><br>I am afraid Crispin may think of carbon credits as a subsidy. <br><br>Let me reiterate that the only definition of subsidy is a negative tax, and even that is fuzzy because to Chicago-style purists, exempting LPG from a tax already levied on it amounts to a subsidy. There are some IMF types who stick by such ludicrous notions, but that is part and parcel of IMF-style accounting and perhaps their tax theory, which I haven't studied. All I can say is that one experience, after I had taken the view that some diesel should be tax-exempted, the way IMF allowed it was to have it taxed as such and then rebating the diesel user. <br><br>I am baffled by Crispin's use of the words "subsidized purchase of the char". I can't tell how he got that idea. <br><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="georgia, serif"> <br></font>Whatever you do "to help the char purchase and resale efforts to get a firm start" is perfectly acceptable market strategy. You may lose money on it, but that is your choice. It is not a subsidy. <br><br>I too use the word "subsidy" rather loosely when I write that I am looking to find products and services that can be "subsidized" and are worth subsidizing. I mean it more in the sense of explicitly budgeted government expenditures, as in social service sector or building roads, dams, ports, and other such infrastructure. A government doesn't run on a balance sheet (though I have seen some curious efforts in some country about making balance sheets just for the heck of it). <br><br>It is the authority and purpose of government expenditures for cracking this problem of "cookstoves" - whatever it is, if only that many cooks are unhappy and want a choice - that I am interested in. I have written in favor of subsidies for LPG and "clean cooking solutions" (including, say, use of pressure cookers) but now I want to get to the brass tacks -- are the "conventional" ICS worth subsidizing? Why or why not? What about processed fuels, solid or liquid/gaseous? <br><br>I will write a subsidy justification whenever someone pays me plenty for it -- Crispin would call it subsidies to me, but I don't care. <br><br>Just as charcoal is not a "dirty fuel" - Kirk Smith and Gold Standard claims notwithstanding - handling charcoal is not, I submit sir, "dirty work". <br><br>Real "dirty work" goes behind closed doors, and you know exactly where. <br><br>Nikhil<br><br>I am confused by your statement below; see between ***.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Crispin,<br>
<br>
I need to clarify. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Would
the stoves have received as much acceptance in the absence of
the subsidized purchase of the char produced?</span></blockquote>
The char purchases are not subsidized. Only at the start of a
project in a new area and with less than 1000 stoves is there some
need to help the char purchase and resale efforts to get a firm
start. After that, zero outside money to the char business. This
arrangement is going on for over four years now in Deganga, and
already established in the Uluberia area after just a couple of
months. <br>
<br>
The char purchasers visit each house once per month a with a driver
of a motorized 3-wheel cargo vehicle with a flat-bed about 6 ft
across and 9 feet long (about 1.8 x 2.5 meters). The char is damp,
and is weighed and put into bags. It is rather dirty work, and the
only people (51 purchasers and 46 drivers) who will do it in the
areas are at the bottom of the social ladder. <br>
<br>
In Deganga I was met by about 25 of these men who treated me like a
prince, the guy who designed the Champion TLUD that has resulted in
their steady employment. All were better off than before, when they
were unemployed, occasionally employed day laborers, or with lower
paying jobs. <br>
<br>
I am collecting more data so that my figures are correct the first
time I give the numbers. I intend to spell out the economics of
this char production process by the end of this month. The data
come from India.<br>
<br>
The char in the initial plans and years was sold for use by
restaurants and small industry.
<span> </span>Currently
about 80% of
the char is re-sold by the wholesaldto the makers of incense sticks
who are quite content with
damp, powdery char and .<br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<br>
<span></span></p>
Even when the carbon credit operations end, the commercial
aspects of the TLUD charcoal production and sales should be
self-sustaining. <br>
<br>
************<br>
Concerning the "subsidy" to obtain a TLUD stove, is it a subsidy or
an investment when the full stove price (US$40) is eventually
recovered from the carbon credit transactions? That would be akin
to micro-finance except that the handling of the carbon credits and
the money are by the project, not the households. <br></div></blockquote><div><br>*** I take it this is your question and assertion, not Crispin's. From what I understand of your project, you are selling trradable carbon credits in the voluntary carbon market. It doesn't matter whether you call it an investment or a cookie. You have a business model where carbon credits you sell help you achieve financial closure prior to the production and delivery of the stove. That's fine by me. I would rather finance such work under public money and scrutiny, but anything private individuals do that is not prohibited by law I have no problem with. *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
There is no on-going subsidy to maintain the project activities.
The overall cash flows from the carbon credit funding covers the
expenses for carbon credit verifications and project leadership.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_-13158461820779292moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-13158461820779292moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-13158461820779292moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_-13158461820779292moz-cite-prefix">On 12/3/2017 10:11 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-13158461820779292WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Dear
Paul<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">“</span>I
was a co-author on the report (
<a href="https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com%2Fdeganga2016&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C0ac08bbfa2644f1aabad08d53ac1ff9e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636479527243887104&sdata=9Zg0caSRfgfyC9v6w%2Ftwl2W0W0%2BoQbqaGSaoC5bRTPo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
www.drtlud.com/deganga2016</a> ) about that highly
successful pilot study with 11,000 quite satisfied users of
TLUD stoves. If acceptance by users is an issue, I refer
people to that report and to visit the project areas in West
Bengal.”<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Would
the stoves have received as much acceptance in the absence
of the subsidized purchase of the char produced?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Suppose
they could only get the local commercial value for the char.
Would they keep buying and using the stoves? I assume that
at some point this case will come to pass.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">The
Tesla sold well (bookings) until the subsidies were
withdrawn after which the orders
<a href="https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2017/06/12/confirmed-without-government-subsidies-tesla-sales-implode/" target="_blank">
dropped</a> 60%. I do not doubt that the stove cooks and
is clean burning and adequate as a cooking device. I helped
Sujatha in the only tiny way I could (assessing the air
supplied and testing the EA+combustion efficiency).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">I
have general concerns with batch loaded stoves that cannot
be refueled. They work but have clear limitations on how
they fit into expected patterns of use. Obviously people
change some habits and they also use different appliances
for the other tasks. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">One
of the places where I see TLUD’s finding broad acceptance is
in Indonesia where they have large quantities of candle nut
shells and no local use for it. Whether they will use these
stoves without subsidy is not clear.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">I
like the implementation model whereby the stove is given
free and through the sale of fuel, its cost is slowly
recovered over time. Finance of a stove (by Stokvel, savings
club or other imaginative cooperative) is often needed for
capital purchases. The cost of a stove is not nearly as
important as the cost of making payments. In order to create
a viable market for LPG stoves, the Indonesian government
gave away 40m stove free. Thereafter the fuel was
subsidised. That doesn’t prove ‘LPG is viable’, it just
proves it is acceptable at a certain cost to a certain
population cohort. Remove the fuel subsidy, free stoves or
not, and the number of people using it will plummet.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Bottom
line: if you want compete with wood or bulk-produced
charcoal, you have to be sure the energy passed along as
char is not increasing the need for raw fuel where that raw
fuel is in limited supply. I previously outlined the
necessary heat transfer efficiency to achieve fuel parity.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Nikhil
has pointed out that fuel efficiency is not
<i>necessarily</i> a condition for acceptance, I have
pointed out in my reply today to Yabei Zhang’s
<a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/thread/6691?sr=stream" target="_blank">question</a> on accessing public
funds for product development that legacy metrics from early
stove programs are hard to drop.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">[To
comment on that site you have to create an account then log
in. If you wish, you can remove and edit old posts and it is
also possible to upload documents.]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div></blockquote></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></div>