<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Paul and ccs:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Agree with all, save your:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> “<i class="">…if and when the biochar community provides sufficient justification for the char…” </i></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The biochar list (a sister list to “stoves”) has numerous examples, visually every day, that this justification now exists. Rick Wilson this past week reported on two sales in the 20,000 ton range for mine land reclamation. Hans-Peter Schmidt has reported most of his sales in Switzerland are for improving cattle health and weight gain (not for direct placement in soil) (see the web site for the Biochar Journal). Over 1000 papers per year listed at the IBI site, devoted to (mostly) crop benefits.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My own estimate, based on a report from China (now on the IBI website), is that biochar industry growth there is experiencing a doubling time less than a year. That doesn’t happen without “<i class="">sufficient justification.”</i></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 4, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
Nikhil,<br class="">
<br class="">
I reply to only one statement (two sentences) by you to Ron. You
wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" class="">My view - uninformed by questionnaires, of
course - is that household cookstoves are not the way to get
biochar for soil conditioning. It should be a large-scale
industrial project. </blockquote>
Totally not correct.<br class="">
<br class="">
If and when large-scale industiral production of biochar kicks into
gear, that will be fine and welcome.<br class="">
<br class="">
Meanwhile, char producion with household cookstoves is aready
functional in West Bengal. However, the char is sold for purposes
of being burned. But it is physically there if and when the
biochar community provides sufficient justification for the char
(appropriately prepared) to be put into soil.<br class="">
<br class="">
(I have a further comment about char in a message soon to reply to
Crispin.)<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/4/2017 8:59 AM, Nikhil Desai
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAK27e=nT_nV30uV-812r4gjeBKdH3cadUNrJm6st-1ZOY9F6cQ@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Ron: <br class="">
<br class="">
We should talk. I don't mean to offend you and am afraid of
making you angry. <br class="">
<br class="">
But this is precisely the kind of questions that I used to
challenge in many a questionnaires including rural energy
surveys.<br class="">
<br class="">
The cardinal principle is that if you really want to gauge
consumer preferences, try to understand their behaviors, living
conditions in totality, not by asking spotty questions whose
answers are convenient for you. <br class="">
<br class="">
What you are suggesting is a "leading question". I would strike
it off immediately. If you had a questionnaire that gathered
information on the physical, social, economic contexts, I might
suggest alternative ways of getting an idea of what you want to
know. <br class="">
<br class="">
I have been around long enough to sneer at academic surveyors
who basically steal poor women's time, knowledge, soul to market
their wares, write PhD theses to test fancy hypotheses and
propound the findings at conferences.<br class="">
<br class="">
I have also talked to women surveyed and the survey takers. My
sneer comes not from me but them. Behind the backs of Western
theorists of rich theories, these people laugh and some tell me
poor women are smart enough to know ahead of time these surveys
serve no purpose other than preparing articles in peer-reviewed
journals that none of their libraries can ever get. <br class="">
<br class="">
I have also been told - by survey designers - that poorly
formulated questions elicit unreliable answers. Some poor women
don't know whose cakes are sought to be cooked by stove
promoters. <br class="">
<br class="">
Of course none of my answers got to what you asked. <br class="">
<br class="">
I am glad none of the surveys have asked your question. <br class="">
<br class="">
Markets evolve organically, which is why "development projects"
in retail products and services have disillusioned me. <br class="">
<br class="">
No wonder more money has been spent on publishing papers than on
design and testing of contextually relevant stoves. <br class="">
<br class="">
That said, let's design a broader survey with some way of
getting to know if cooks want to collect enough extra wood to
make biochar. My view - uninformed by questionnaires, of course
- is that household cookstoves are not the way to get biochar
for soil conditioning. It should be a large-scale industrial
project. Already, billions of poor have seen it is better to get
rich enough to afford gas and electricity than to wait for the
Western stove community to develop the killer app of savior
stoves. The only way to get their trust is to earn it from hard
work, not by titillating them with "extra money". "Saving wood"
was also the same as getting "extra money"; they have been
fooled enough by that promise.
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class=""><font face="georgia,
serif" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">
Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US
+1) 202 568
5831</span><font face="georgia,
serif" class=""><br class="">
<i class="">Skype:
nikhildesai888</i><br class="">
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Ronal
W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Nikhil:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
hope you (and almost everybody on this list) will take
the time to ask a few low-income women the
below-question that I have not seen asked. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> If
you could imagine yourself having a batch stove that
cost the same and used the same fuel whether you (now
low income) would rather make money or not, what would
your own answer be?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>None
of your answer below gets at what I am asking. I
repeat; I have not seen any survey with this question.
I have talked to many people about this for twenty-plus
years individually - and I have gotten the answer that I
want others to get.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Obviously
I am asking this so as to get char in the ground.
Obviously for climate reasons. But soil NPP improvement
also occurs - without conflict. All this is obvious on
the sister biochar list. I am trying to get this list
aware of biochar as a positive part of stoves and
cooking. It is of no help to hear your answers about
fuel collection, making observations, cooks making money
with kerosene stoves, non-wood stoves taking over,
large-scale cooking , etc. None of your answers get at
the question of the value in making char while one
cooks. It is not a difficult question to answer.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:48 PM, Nikhil Desai
<<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_-1285232705607484816Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Ron: <br class="">
<br class="">
That is an interesting question but the
answer has to be compared to alternative
means of making money. <br class="">
<br class="">
Reduction in fuel collection time is one
form of saving; the time freed up can be
used for higher-priority activity, including
education, child care, or employment. <br class="">
<br class="">
In other words, answers to this question can
only be interpreted with additional,
context-specific information or questions.
In and of itself, it is a meaningless
question. <br class="">
<br class="">
There are indirect ways of gathering
people's priorities -- observing what they
in fact do. <br class="">
<br class="">
Here is what I have observed over the last
several decades: <br class="">
<br class="">
1. In India, housewives in cities and towns
have indeed made money by cooking, though on
kerosene and LPG/electricity and preparing
dry/canned/frozen foods as well as fresh
meals and snacks for sale. <br class="">
<br class="">
2. Roughly a billion people in the
developing world have moved away from
collecting woodfuels and cooking all the
meals for family consumption. <br class="">
<br class="">
3. Family size and composition, location,
alternatives and priorities in use of
women's time have changed. <br class="">
<br class="">
4. Charcoaling from own or others' trees is
an income-generating activity, but whether a
cook wants to spend her time to do the same
is open to question. She might well want to
do for selling locally as fuel but not to
some central authority for biochar. <br class="">
<br class="">
Your question may be better directed to
commercial, large-scale cooks, who are
probably easier customers for biomass and
coal stoves anyway compared to poor
households.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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<br class="">
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<div class=""><font face="georgia,
serif" class="">------------------------------<wbr class="">------------------------------<wbr class="">------------<br class="">
Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US
<a href="tel:%28202%29%20568-5831" value="+12025685831" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">+1) 202 568
5831</a></span><font face="georgia,
serif" class=""><br class="">
<i class="">Skype:
nikhildesai888</i><br class="">
</font><br class="">
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<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017
at 3:39 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Paul:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
have yet to see on ANY stove
questionnaire: “How important is
making (more than saving) money when
you cook?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class="">
<div class="m_-1285232705607484816h5">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 3, 2017, at 8:41
AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">Crispin,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">Good
point.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">I
wonder how ofter "pride
of ownership" is
included in the
evaluations. <span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">I
hope that such a
quesiton can be asked to
the 40,000 (or a sample)
users of the Champion
TLUD stove in West
Bengal. <span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">About
surveys and
questionnaires and
interviews, (whether for
stoves or other topics),
questions keep being
changed, so comparison
between results are
often difficult or
meaningless because of
wording. Are there
some common (shared)
questions that tend to
be used in stove
surveys? <span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important" class="">Paul</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<pre class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304moz-signature" cols="72" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New';font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">On
12/3/2017 5:35 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">In
the survey of
potential stove users
conducted in Gauteng
2004, "Pride of
ownership" scored
above price and fuel
consumption in a
ranking of features. </div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Philip
confirms this aspect
of reality in the
South African market. </div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Regards </div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">Crispin </div>
<div style="width:934px;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate
Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304WordSection1">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">“</span><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class="">Capital cost of the stove is a minor
issue; the
question is
whether the
users like and
use the stove.”
A community I
studied
carefully had a
monthly
household income
of <$100 yet
strove to buy a
smokey cast iron
coal-fired stove
costing ~$400.
It met all their
needs –
including a
higher social
status merely
because they
possessed such a
stove.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span></p>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Prof
Philip Lloyd</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Energy
Institute, CPUT</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">PO
Box 1906</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Bellville
7535</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Tel
021 959 4323</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Cell
083 441 5247</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">PA
Nadia 021 959
4330</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class=""></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span></p>
<div style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0cm 0cm" class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves
[<a class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.b<wbr class="">ioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Nikhil
Desai<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
December 2,
2017 1:50 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Paul
Anderson<br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion
of biomass
cooking stoves<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] China
and cookstoves
[Was Re: A
user-centered,
iterative
engineering
approach for
advanced
biomass
cookstove
design and
development]</span></div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> </p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class="">Paul: <br class="">
<br class="">
Capital cost
of the stove
is a minor
issue; the
question is
whether the
users like and
use the stove.
This is why
contextual
definitions
matter,
because pellet
production
costs can vary
greatly
depending on
the
feedstock. <br class="">
<br class="">
A high capital
cost stove can
be given
one-time
subsidy -
should be
given to the
distributor if
one exists;
could be given
to a bulk
producer - on
the condition
that the
stoves are
found useful
and used.
Metrics of
efficiency and
hourly
emission rates
are just
smoke. <br class="">
<br class="">
I am glad to
read "</span>it
is something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country
side." <span style="font-family:Georgia,serif" class="">Gives
the lie to
physics-only
theories of
supposed
"stove
science". <br class="">
<br class="">
Nikhil</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">On
Thu, Nov 30,
2017 at 10:05
AM, Paul
Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">Cheng
and all,
(and a mention
of Todd Albi).
see below.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class="">Website: <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C62b2f8c8c9bf4c43283c08d53a40c4b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636478972205853695&sdata=PbkCfNM6hUmnmoyj1uEbhKXufYiC9MFTSc3ueAqhjNU%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">On
11/29/2017
10:15 PM, lh
cheng wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">Another
Chinese little
project.
Surely, it is
cookstove, not
heater. Too
expensive,
1500RMB (230
USD), in rural
area, a big
number, very
big, no one
buy, not even
one, in rural
area. For
user, many
uncertainties
to use new
type of stove.
if free of
charge, a
trustworthy
friend who is
an expert
about this
stove, that
might be fine.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">I
was wondering
about the
price of that
pellet burner
stove. Yes,
it is
expensive, but
expensive is a
relative term.
It could be
imported into
America where
$230 is
inexpensive,
but the price
here would be
so much higher
and it would
then be
expensive
here. <span class="m_-1285232705607484816m_529151126071644304Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">stove
thing should
be open-source
( just like Dr
Anderson's
Champion Stove
), DIY, or
made by
acquaintance,
it is
something
about family,
a cultural
thing,
especially in
country side.
In city,
electricity or
LPG is enough.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">Is
there any
prospect in
China for DIY.
And what
would be the
acceptance of
a stove made
with thin
metal?
Generalizing,
it seems that
heavy
construction
of stoves is
the standard
in China.
Todd Albi
might be able
to shed some
light on this.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">a
good approach
for stove
design maybe
is that, basic
knowledge of
stove design
spread among
people, and
people help
each other.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">What
do you have in
mind? in
the context of
China? I
have
difficulty
imagining
stove design
work in China
outside of the
factory
context.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">concerning
"stove
intervention",
during
1959-1961 in
China, more
than 30
millions of
people died
because a
stove
intervention
movement. and
people have
memories.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">Please
provide more
information
about this
statement
about 30
million
deaths.<br class="">
<br class="">
Welcome to the
world of the
Stoves
Listserv. We
appreciate
your insights.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New
Roman',serif" class="">best
regards </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
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<br class="">
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