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Crispin,<br>
<br>
There is no subsidy for the char collection business. The
operations of the carbon credits are separate from the char
collection. But (as I wrote) there is an initial period needed to
get the stove numbers high enough so that the char collection can be
sustainable. But not subsidized.<br>
<br>
I repeat: NOT subsidized.<br>
<br>
There is a linkage that I will clarify: Because of the carbon
credit (CC) program for the stoves, there is some organizational
structure that is beneficial to the char collection efforts. The
char collectors are at the bottom of the social scale, and have very
little education, and are not strong in leadership for being
organized (my belief, not based on careful study.) The CC program
leaders provide the list of names and addresses of the stove
purchasers and give some oversight to assist being organized. I do
not call that a subsidy; it is assistance. <br>
<br>
When the (CC) program ends, will the char collection system continue
to function smoothly? We do not know yet because it has not
happened yet. But there is some money in the char collection
business that does go to some locally-resident middle-level people
in the stove CC program, and I suspect that they would be able to
keep things functional for quite some time. <br>
<br>
You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="line-height:initial">To be
quite frank, I should not have to independently find out how the
West Bengal project works financially. </span></blockquote>
To also be frank, I will say that there is a lot of operational and
financial detail in the Deganga Case Study. And there are some
things that are not for publication because there are contracts
between different parties that 1) I do not know in detail, and that
2) are appropriately private. And also, nobody has ever asked me
for more details, nor seemed to care about such matters.<br>
<br>
I do now have additional information because I spent 9 days in West
Bengal a month ago after the GACC Forum. I am still writing the
up-date about the Deganga project and its expansion into Uluberia.
But the financial side has not much new information because things
have not changed much since the Sept 2016 release of the Deganga
Case Study. <br>
<br>
Also, to be quite frank, some people should independently look at
this (and all other) projects. I want them to do that because no
matter what ___i___ write, I am seen as biased. But I assure your
that the important financial information is not hidden.<br>
<br>
*******<br>
(Pause)<br>
******* now that I have cooled off a little, I will add:<br>
What more information would be useful? I especially would like to
know what information could favorabley catch the attention of
someone or some entity that could seriously consider putting some
money into the TLUD stove project in West Bengal. The situation is
this: expansion to serve more households is directly linked to
having funds to acquire the stoves ($40 each) from the factories.
Period. All other financial aspects are under control and
operational. The project can accept gifts or grants at a 501.c.3
organization that is let by me, and any eventual surplus funds go
back into the project to help more families. We are just getting
started and the website needs to be fleshed out more. <br>
<br>
( I cannot advertize the donation process on the Stoves Listserv.
But we can discuss here how to make it better. Help will be
appreciated in all forms, not just financial. Off-list, I can be
reached at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> if you are willing to help,
including to help test the website regarding donations or the
purchase GS CER fully certified carbon credits. )<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/4/2017 6:08 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MWHPR22MB07843F54BBF63FC43F8D4EF6B13D0@MWHPR22MB0784.namprd22.prod.outlook.com">
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Dear Paul</div>
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<br>
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My question related to the CDM project money, which I was
calling a subsidy. <span style="font-size:initial;
text-align:initial; line-height:initial"></span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">"Even when the carbon credit
operations end, the commercial aspects of the TLUD charcoal
production and sales should be self-sustainingý"</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">Then there is a subsidy
involved, just not on the purchase of the stoves, isn't that
correct?
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">I am not protesting against
subsidies, I am seeking a clear understanding of the
economics. I am a strong supporter of the ýuse of 'weed
species' material as a fuel. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">It is unfortunate that each
'solution' is presented by its enthusiasts and supporters as
the Final Solution. Each system that works takes place in a
context and the details of it matter a lot. They may be
reproducible, they may not. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">As you point out, there are
circumstances where some particular combination works. You and
Ron and Gordon can choose the motivations you like. For guys
like me who promote a range of technologies it is important to
give me the macro and micro picture of how the system works. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">At this time I am promoting
perhaps a dozen stove types each of which has a broad or
narrow niche. To be quite frank, I should not have to
independently find out how the West Bengal project works
financially. I am not afraid of finance. I am afraid of
systems that do not add enough value to all three bottom
lines, as Gordon notes. The business case should be accessible
and clear and then let other implementers decide what ýsuits
their opportunities. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">There is an initiative, a
discussion, going on now in Mt circle about what brings or
drives investment into research leading to highly improves
stoves and fuels where the investment is public funding. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">You and I have been advocates
of investment in 'blue sky' new ideas for ages. The targets
are, generally, set too low, historically speaking. Much
higher performance is possible and the co-benefits are
manifold. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial">You have pointed out that
making char while cooking is possible in certain cases. Dr AD
Karve has pointed out (and made a business case) creating
charcoal fuel out of sugar cane leaves. He points out there is
a resource of more than 500m tons of raw material presently
wasted (burned in the field). I have pointed out that the
problem is placing a value on the raw material sufficient for
it to be collected. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">There are agriculturalists who
want all plant-sourced material to go back into the soilý.
That is a competing interest. They have influence and a point
to make too.</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">Let's document the successes
(as we interpret them) and place them on the table. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">Best regards </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial">Crispin </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>Crispin,<br>
<br>
I need to clarify. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">Would the stoves have received as much
acceptance in the absence of the subsidized purchase of the
char produced?</span></blockquote>
The char purchases are not subsidized. Only at the start of a
project in a new area and with less than 1000 stoves is there
some need to help the char purchase and resale efforts to get a
firm start. After that, zero outside money to the char
business. This arrangement is going on for over four years now
in Deganga, and already established in the Uluberia area after
just a couple of months.
<br>
<br>
The char purchasers visit each house once per month a with a
driver of a motorized 3-wheel cargo vehicle with a flat-bed
about 6 ft across and 9 feet long (about 1.8 x 2.5 meters). The
char is damp, and is weighed and put into bags. It is rather
dirty work, and the only people (51 purchasers and 46 drivers)
who will do it in the areas are at the bottom of the social
ladder.
<br>
<br>
In Deganga I was met by about 25 of these men who treated me
like a prince, the guy who designed the Champion TLUD that has
resulted in their steady employment. All were better off than
before, when they were unemployed, occasionally employed day
laborers, or with lower paying jobs. <br>
<br>
I am collecting more data so that my figures are correct the
first time I give the numbers. I intend to spell out the
economics of this char production process by the end of this
month. The data come from India.<br>
<br>
The char in the initial plans and years was sold for use by
restaurants and small industry.
<span style=""> </span>Currently about 80% of the char is
re-sold by the wholesaldto the makers of incense sticks who are
quite content with damp, powdery char and .<br style="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt"><br style="">
<span style=""></span></p>
Even when the carbon credit operations end, the commercial
aspects of the TLUD charcoal production and sales should be
self-sustaining.
<br>
<br>
************<br>
Concerning the "subsidy" to obtain a TLUD stove, is it a subsidy
or an investment when the full stove price (US$40) is eventually
recovered from the carbon credit transactions? That would be
akin to micro-finance except that the handling of the carbon
credits and the money are by the project, not the households. <br>
<br>
There is no on-going subsidy to maintain the project
activities. The overall cash flows from the carbon credit
funding covers the expenses for carbon credit verifications and
project leadership.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7Cccb2832c149940c7f58508d53b57e89d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636480171106095613&sdata=wIgB%2FIt3Z7h3PF4ilYHvJ3KCuZeo%2FwnDLDa2zXALp6M%3D&reserved=0" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/3/2017 10:11 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Dear
Paul</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">“</span>I was a co-author on the report (
<a
href="https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com%2Fdeganga2016&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7C0ac08bbfa2644f1aabad08d53ac1ff9e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636479527243887104&sdata=9Zg0caSRfgfyC9v6w%2Ftwl2W0W0%2BoQbqaGSaoC5bRTPo%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
www.drtlud.com/deganga2016</a> ) about that highly
successful pilot study with 11,000 quite satisfied users
of TLUD stoves. If acceptance by users is an issue, I
refer people to that report and to visit the project areas
in West Bengal.”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">Would the stoves have received as much
acceptance in the absence of the subsidized purchase of
the char produced?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">Suppose they could only get the local
commercial value for the char. Would they keep buying
and using the stoves? I assume that at some point this
case will come to pass.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">The Tesla sold well (bookings) until the
subsidies were withdrawn after which the orders
<a
href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.technocracy.news%2Findex.php%2F2017%2F06%2F12%2Fconfirmed-without-government-subsidies-tesla-sales-implode%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7Cccb2832c149940c7f58508d53b57e89d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636480171106095613&sdata=4Oh5Pu7gDW7TYtcd2dQv6fo95AE2QVNqM61aq2LUVRk%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
dropped</a> 60%. I do not doubt that the stove cooks
and is clean burning and adequate as a cooking device. I
helped Sujatha in the only tiny way I could (assessing
the air supplied and testing the EA+combustion
efficiency).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">I have general concerns with batch loaded
stoves that cannot be refueled. They work but have clear
limitations on how they fit into expected patterns of
use. Obviously people change some habits and they also
use different appliances for the other tasks. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">One of the places where I see TLUD’s
finding broad acceptance is in Indonesia where they have
large quantities of candle nut shells and no local use
for it. Whether they will use these stoves without
subsidy is not clear.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">I like the implementation model whereby the
stove is given free and through the sale of fuel, its
cost is slowly recovered over time. Finance of a stove
(by Stokvel, savings club or other imaginative
cooperative) is often needed for capital purchases. The
cost of a stove is not nearly as important as the cost
of making payments. In order to create a viable market
for LPG stoves, the Indonesian government gave away 40m
stove free. Thereafter the fuel was subsidised. That
doesn’t prove ‘LPG is viable’, it just proves it is
acceptable at a certain cost to a certain population
cohort. Remove the fuel subsidy, free stoves or not, and
the number of people using it will plummet.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">Bottom line: if you want compete with wood
or bulk-produced charcoal, you have to be sure the
energy passed along as char is not increasing the need
for raw fuel where that raw fuel is in limited supply. I
previously outlined the necessary heat transfer
efficiency to achieve fuel parity.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">Nikhil has pointed out that fuel efficiency
is not
<i>necessarily</i> a condition for acceptance, I have
pointed out in my reply today to Yabei Zhang’s
<a
href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcollaboration.worldbank.org%2Fthread%2F6691%3Fsr%3Dstream&data=02%7C01%7Ccrispinpigott%40outlook.com%7Cccb2832c149940c7f58508d53b57e89d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636480171106095613&sdata=mjkIELkUxRBzl2JIRQP0BS%2FpmbrggHzjw7DgFwZAKSA%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
question</a> on accessing public funds for product
development that legacy metrics from early stove
programs are hard to drop.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">[To comment on that site you have to create
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<br>
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