<div dir="ltr">thank you Neil, thank you so much.<div>through you valuable experience, I may conclude that indoor cooking is really a bad idea for TLUD, even not DIY. the way you find valuable only can be tested outdoor, we can't afford the risk of failure indoor.</div><div><br></div><div>since I sealed some gaps of my TLUD stove with cements, I have to wait for couple of days, I return to my rocket stove, made some modification, it works very fine yesterday and today. </div><div><br></div><div>under the same situation and condition, rocket stove and traditional stove is much safer. and the rocket stove can burn clean. I am a little bit more appreciate its merit, since I find TLUD is fragile. every fragile thing is a ticking time bomb, though it is beautiful and perfect in normal state...</div><div><br></div><div>best regards</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-12-03 21:26 GMT+08:00 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank">neiltm@uwclub.net</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On 3 Dec 2017 at 11:14, lh cheng wrote:<br>
<br>
> In my case, I have suffered one gas poison.<br>
> dizzy and paralyzed a little bit for 10 hrs, I only use TLUD less than 1<br>
> month, many times big smoke go out from my window, my neighbor is very nice<br>
> not calling the police. I can't imagine how a housewife deal with the hard<br>
> situation, maybe DIY is not a good idea.<br>
><br>
<br>
</span>I have been experimenting and regularly cooking, all year round for at<br>
least ten years by now, and I have never ever experienced anything like<br>
the poisoning you describe, but then I have NEVER run a TLUD indoors -<br>
always outside, albeit not far from the back door.<br>
<br>
In all that time and still to this day as happened only last week, I can<br>
still make a smokey mess, losing the flame, and I would venture to say<br>
that this will happen occasionally for as long as you experiment in so<br>
far as you may be pushing at the limits of stove configuration and fuel<br>
in your experiments, its moisture content in particular I still find hard<br>
to estimate without a damp meter, so from time to time I get caught out<br>
by outdoor uncovered wood that turns out to be wetter than I had<br>
anticipated. When this happens there are a number of ways to retrieve<br>
the situation or bale out of it altogether if the miscalculation has been<br>
too great! The simplest way to put an end to disasterous smoke, refusing<br>
all attempts at re-ignition is to have a biscuit tin available in which<br>
to tip the entire contents of the stove and put the lid on tight.<br>
Outside of course you could also douse the smouldering pile with water,<br>
but I prefer the air starvation method of quenching as what then quickly<br>
cools is potentially reusable. I quench all the remaining char this way<br>
so that by riddling out the ash it is immediately available for the<br>
barbeque.<br>
<br>
If you can dry enough fuel indoors to supply your cooking needs, then<br>
building and modifying your stove(s) to burn a more consistent fuel is a<br>
more reliable way to go. If indoor drying is a problem for supplying all<br>
your wood needs, then I have found I can usefully modify the kind of fire<br>
I want by mixing in damp outdoor wood with stove top dried. A shallow<br>
layer of damp at the bottom of a simple fixed air ratio TLUD stove can be<br>
really useful for extending total pyrolysis time, but at a more 'simmer'<br>
level after an earlier more vigorous burn with the drier wood at the top<br>
for the start of combustion.<br>
<br>
Ways to revive the lost flame:<br>
<br>
I grate candle wax with a serated knife over the top of my fuel as my<br>
preferred way to start my stoves, and often if the loss of flame is not<br>
too serious, sprinkling a few more gratings on top can revive the fire<br>
which can then be kept going.<br>
<br>
The other way I use is blasting air into the top of the stove through a<br>
pipe or I use a barbeque hand cranked fan.<br>
<br>
Sometimes even just throwing a lighted match into the pot, such that the<br>
brimstone is still burning as it enters can re-ignite the lost flame.<br>
<br>
I cook outdoors even when the temperature is below freezing. As I don't<br>
have any kind of roof cover outside it is usually only rain that puts me<br>
off cooking outdoors.<br>
<br>
I sent a post to this list last January, illustrated with photos of my<br>
experiments with utilising damp wood to advantage in controlling the fire<br>
I want for various cooking tasks, using the simple and cheap stainless<br>
steel natural draft camping stoves, which are made in China and sold<br>
through ebay and amazon. I think they are excellent, and reveal to me<br>
truly intelligent design which I have found to be optimum in versatility<br>
for their intended purpose, ie. camping where wide fuel variability is<br>
the rule, and reliability of starting and robustness of a useable fire<br>
exceeds clean emissions as a priority. We have lived for a month at a<br>
time entirely relying on these stoves for all our cooking.<br>
<br>
Look in the archives for:<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net">neiltm@uwclub.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br>
Subject: [Stoves] Chinese stove photo sequence<br>
Date sent: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:03:32 -0000<br>
<br>
My first post in this thread was on the 18th Jan 2017, and there are<br>
other posts. Let me know if you have any problem accessing the posts<br>
through the web, as I can forward it/them through email to you directly<br>
if preferred.<br>
<br>
If your priority is clean emissions and soot free pots, then you need to<br>
restrict primary air more than in my experiments above, and a ratio of 1<br>
primary to 6 secondary is about right, and can be calculated precisely if<br>
you are using drills to make the holes. With these sorts of ratios the<br>
stove will be more fuel fussy, meaning it will need to be well dried.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Best wishes, Neil Taylor (in southern England)<br>
<span class=""><br>
<br>
<br>
> regards<br>
><br>
> 2017-12-03 10:47 GMT+08:00 Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>:<br>
><br>
> > Cheng, see below<br>
> ><br>
> > Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
> > Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
</span>> > Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072">+1-309-452-7072</a> <(309)%20452-7072><br>
<div><div class="h5">> > Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > On 12/2/2017 7:48 PM, lh cheng wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > TLUD stove is efficient but fragile. this fragile concept comes from a<br>
> > book "Antifragile", written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, like Dr Anderson, he<br>
> > is a Doctor and professor. He have a good understanding of man-made<br>
> > artificial system, have deep insight of the weakness of some man-made<br>
> > system, and he find a good way to make money (of no small amount ) through<br>
> > it from financial market.<br>
> ><br>
> > Fragile thing like Titanic ship, is high efficient, beautiful, but there<br>
> > were big risks, which cannot be avoided anyway, underneath the surface,<br>
> > when something wrong happened eventually, inevitably, no one can afford it.<br>
> ><br>
> > I criticize TLUD stove here, not in malice, but try to make something<br>
> > clear, maybe we can find out the hindrance of its popularity, find a<br>
> > direction to improve it, and help the user to use it in a safer way.<br>
> ><br>
> > TLUD stove separates gas combustion from gasification, and is batch-feed,<br>
> > this combination create efficiency and convenience, but also big risk. many<br>
> > thing can cause the fire ( gas combustion ) go out, too much or too little<br>
> > gas, too much or too little air, temperature too low, (too much or too<br>
> > little prmary air, cause too much or too little gas, both can lead to<br>
> > extinguish of the secondary combustion), too much moisture in the fuel.<br>
> > once the fire go out, great smoke jet out like crazy, poisonous, and the<br>
> > fuel is burning inside the inner cylinder like crazy, no easy way to put<br>
> > out the first combustion. it is very dangerous and bad situation for<br>
> > housewife, neighbors scared by the big smoke, people even can got killed by<br>
> > the poisonous gas. (when water can't low down the charcoal temperature,<br>
> > water H2O can be turned into poisonous CO gas immediately).<br>
> ><br>
> > The paragraph above does not express the reality of 40,000 TLUD stove<br>
> > users living closely together in We s Bengal, India. the concerns you<br>
> > raise can be presented in "theory", but that is ot the reality. You are<br>
> > writing line the TLUD "deniers" of 5 to 12 years ago. I heard that over<br>
> > and over. It is in the big New Yorker magazine articles. Those people<br>
> > are not saying such things any more, at least not publically or where their<br>
> > comments could leak back to me.<br>
> ><br>
> > Traditional stove have no such thing, because it is not batch-feeding, not<br>
> > burning in a tight closed space. and safer in unexpected situation. it is<br>
> > robust. that's why people prefer it over TLUD stove maybe.<br>
> ><br>
> > I have no clear idea yet, I just typed this message, not thinking it<br>
> > thoroughly.<br>
> ><br>
> > I accept your statement that you are basically not yet well informed or<br>
> > with much experience. Stick with the TLUD stoves. They are the wave of<br>
> > the future. They can become better, and that is where you and others will<br>
> > eventually make important contributions. -- And there will be many who<br>
> > will sit on the sidelines. --- Progress in the past few years has<br>
> > been great, and getting better all the time.<br>
> ><br>
> > I'll sign this message to show my full bias.<br>
> ><br>
> > Dr TLUD<br>
> ><br>
> > best regards<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > 2017-12-02 7:50 GMT+08:00 Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Paul:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Capital cost of the stove is a minor issue; the question is whether the<br>
> >> users like and use the stove. This is why contextual definitions matter,<br>
> >> because pellet production costs can vary greatly depending on the<br>
> >> feedstock.<br>
> >><br>
> >> A high capital cost stove can be given one-time subsidy - should be given<br>
> >> to the distributor if one exists; could be given to a bulk producer - on<br>
> >> the condition that the stoves are found useful and used. Metrics of<br>
> >> efficiency and hourly emission rates are just smoke.<br>
> >><br>
> >> I am glad to read "it is something about family, a cultural thing,<br>
> >> especially in country side." Gives the lie to physics-only theories of<br>
> >> supposed "stove science".<br>
> >><br>
> >> Nikhil<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Cheng and all, (and a mention of Todd Albi). see below.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
> >>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
</div></div>> >>> Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072">+1-309-452-7072</a> <%28309%29%20452-7072><br>
<div><div class="h5">> >>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On 11/29/2017 10:15 PM, lh cheng wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Another Chinese little project. Surely, it is cookstove, not heater. Too<br>
> >>> expensive, 1500RMB (230 USD), in rural area, a big number, very big, no one<br>
> >>> buy, not even one, in rural area. For user, many uncertainties to use new<br>
> >>> type of stove. if free of charge, a trustworthy friend who is an expert<br>
> >>> about this stove, that might be fine.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I was wondering about the price of that pellet burner stove. Yes, it is<br>
> >>> expensive, but expensive is a relative term. It could be imported into<br>
> >>> America where $230 is inexpensive, but the price here would be so much<br>
> >>> higher and it would then be expensive here.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> stove thing should be open-source ( just like Dr Anderson's Champion<br>
> >>> Stove ), DIY, or made by acquaintance, it is something about family, a<br>
> >>> cultural thing, especially in country side. In city, electricity or LPG is<br>
> >>> enough.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Is there any prospect in China for DIY. And what would be the<br>
> >>> acceptance of a stove made with thin metal? Generalizing, it seems that<br>
> >>> heavy construction of stoves is the standard in China. Todd Albi might be<br>
> >>> able to shed some light on this.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> a good approach for stove design maybe is that, basic knowledge of stove<br>
> >>> design spread among people, and people help each other.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> What do you have in mind? in the context of China? I have<br>
> >>> difficulty imagining stove design work in China outside of the factory<br>
> >>> context.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> concerning "stove intervention", during 1959-1961 in China, more than 30<br>
> >>> millions of people died because a stove intervention movement. and people<br>
> >>> have memories.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Please provide more information about this statement about 30 million<br>
> >>> deaths.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Welcome to the world of the Stoves Listserv. We appreciate your<br>
> >>> insights.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Paul<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> best regards<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
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