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Nikhil,<br>
<br>
One clarification about what you wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">I don't think Paul's project is part of the
CDM. </blockquote>
We have been discussing TWO aspects or projects in West Bengal. The
Char collecition business / project is separate from the CDM
financially, but it is part of the total CDM project that says the
households do not burn the char which is instead collected
(purchased) and sold to replace charcoal that would have been
produced by traditional methods. Part but separate.<br>
<br>
The other project is the big one with the TLUD stoves sold into the
households, with later verifications of stove usgage. That ic
clearly a CDM project. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/5/2017 10:44 AM, Nikhil Desai
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAK27e=kRX+46GMkSAkz_3bHhZwCCB=ec+dNbR3iHsQ6EKrhg9w@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Crispin:<br>
<br>
Public expenditures are not all "subsidies". <br>
<br>
The word "subsidy" has no precise meaning nor an estimate,
except as the amount of expenditure. It is a red herring. It is
upsetting that physicists and engineers want to preach "market
solutions" for the poor while enjoying fat subsidies themselves.
<br>
<br>
It's not that I am unaware of the arguments about subsidies or
haven't been smack in the middle of them. All I can say is that
there are dumb subsidies and there are smart subsidies.
Output-based capital subsidies that can be dished out on a
competitive basis (roughly) are generally smart. <br>
<br>
In Rwanda, the finance minister who had approved the budget for
the Kigali prison biogas project was extremely smart. He saw
something worth putting his money on and knew how the project
can be contracted out with whose supervision. <br>
<br>
It also saved him money on fuel. (After all, he also had to
budget for the prison.) <br>
<br>
Is that a "subsidy"? <br>
<br>
What is your problem with "subsidy"? If you are trying to
rationalize a research program - inherently difficult to do
under ODA projects, except via a science and technology grant -
that too is a "subsidy" under your definition. <br>
<br>
I don't think Paul's project is part of the CDM. You don't need
to see the whole "financial picture" because that too is a myth.
One-time financial picture means nothing, and a forecast of
balance sheets is subject to so many assumptions that it is
useless to share it in public. Just try to get financials for
some startup financed by venture capital. <br>
<br>
Why do you want to know the whole financial picture? I imagine
Paul and many others in comparable projects have put in "sweat
equity", "intellectual capital" whose returns are in the growth
of business itself. <br>
<br>
Nurturing, developing such businesses -- the implementing
partner in Deganga who wanted stoves in the first place, plus
stove manufacturers and designers, testers - is an art. Takes a
lot of money and TLC and over-burdening them with certification
requirements a la CDM and Gold Standard is, to me, a waste of
resources. Simpler expenditure programs can be designed, though
governments and donors are short of money, short of attention
span. <br>
<br>
What to subsidize and how, how much, whom to give money, are
thorny questions. LPG subsidies are relatively easy to design
and don't have much overhead in seeing that money flows. It used
to be that fixing the price was the way an implicit
cross-subsidy was forced on Indian oil companies. Now the money
goes for the most part to households. There are arguments for
and against such form and levels of subsidies, and subsidy
dependence is a serious problem, as with food and fertilizer
subsidies. <br>
<br>
Just how the stoves are run is a question of consumer behavior
and choice. If the $40 is adequate to install and start using
the stove, that is good enough, though there should have been
field testing for usability, safety, durability. <br>
<br>
So long as once installed, users continue to profit from it,
including via charcoal sales, and buy a replacement or a
supplemental one (say, dedicated to commercial cooking and
charring), that is proof enough of success and sustainability to
me. Next time around, another area, another technology, another
kind of "external" money. <br>
<br>
Your second question is about performance risk. Some performance
risks ought to be avoidable by field testing and monitoring;
some others - e.g., "stacking" - are not really anybody's
bother. CDM has made a weird rule about destroying the old
stove; just guarantees that wrong products may be chosen and
consumer value is ignored. <br>
<br>
Who is this "we" in "<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">We are not
allowed to take unconscionable risks and risks have to have a
mitigation plan" and where? Everything, I repeat, is
contextual. The $142 million raised at Clean Cooking Summit
went to somebody somehow, no? What did the donors want and how
was it delivered? <br>
</span><br>
Without a good product that meets the desired service standard,
no amount of subsidy is going to do anything in the long term.
From that finance minister's perspective, the question was, "I
can commit to continuing expenditures for ten years if spending
the money guarantees that biogas, stoves, micro-hydro can keep
expanding and improve the living conditions and generate
employment." (Not exactly his words, but you get the idea. There
are many ways to skin the cat.) <br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:39 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_-3150668820381024350WordSection1">
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">Dear Paul</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">There is nothing
controversial or toxic about this question. You
have a stove project that has a CDM component –
apparently the first CDM project approved for
stoves – someone said (which I found an amazing
claim).</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">Anyway:</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">></span></b>I
repeat: NOT subsidized.<br>
<span style="color:windowtext">>…</span>if you
are willing to help, including to help test the
website regarding donations or the purchase GS CER
fully certified carbon credits. )<br>
<br>
<span style="color:windowtext"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">It is a donation. There
are beneficiaries.
<i>Something</i> is subsidized. I want to know
where the CDM money goes. I do not care
<i>where</i> it goes , I just want to see the
whole financial picture. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">This will inform my first
question which is: can the project continue if
this money source is cut off. I was not thinking
of your request for $40 per stove, I was thinking
of the CDM money which according to Sujatha, was
necessary to buy the char at a viable price and
sell it to the foundry.
</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">If the value as a coal
replacement is adequate to cover the cost of
collection and delivery, then it is viable without
the CDM money. If it is needed, then it is not.
</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">Is this clear? There is
external money flowing into the project. I
expressed no opinion about whether or not it was
good or bad. The question is whether or not it can
continue indefinitely without that money.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">If it can, the next
assessment of risk is what change might take place
and how that would affect the viability. If the
change wrought indeed made it unviable
financially, what steps can be take to mitigate
the risk?</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">This is normal due
diligence. We are not allowed to take
unconscionable risks and risks have to have a
mitigation plan. Stove char is a business and
needs a business plan. If it depends on a subsidy,
say so, and let us know that it is an essential
element, and we will prepare for it. We will
justify it to governments or donors if we can.
</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">Regards<span
class="gmail-HOEnZb"></span></span></p>
<span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext"> <u> </u></span></p>
</font></span></div>
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