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<p><font size="+1">Ron, <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">What is Blue Biochar? A new one for me. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Thanks</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">frank<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/7/17 4:06 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C2B75487-6738-4001-B7EC-4A743D2C3201@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="">Julien, cc List</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Apologies.
I hope anyone thinking of responding to my message from about 6
hours ago will respond to this one instead.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1a.
Re my first comment on using concrete instead of metal for the
inner cylinder: I had not thought that through well enough.
With a concrete or ceramic inner cylinder replacing the present
one, there would be much less heating of the secondary air which
is flowing upward between the two cylinders. Newcomers to TLUD
design may not have noticed that the lowest concrete cylinder
had a ring of “notches” of maybe 5 or 10 sqcm. Those were the
entry points for the essential secondary air - which is much
more valuable if hot - and that heating is obtained at
essentially zero cost in this nice Bangladeshi design.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1b.
Long time members of this list will know that there has been a
lot of discussion of testing and design improvement using
throw-away tin cans. The steel reactor cylinder being used
here (with “24 small holes”) probably is thicker than those of
(say) the (largest common) #10 tin cans (which are about 6”x9”
(roughly 15 cm * 22.5 cm)). It looks like the present metal
cylinder can be readily removed. It might be (not sure) that
there are enough #10 tin cans being scrapped in Dacca to justify
the difficulty of cobbling together a loser-cost inner cylinder
that might work almost as well, but allow a lower selling price
(with not too frequent future replacements?). Just needed to
get this in because that #10 tin can is such a marvel of modern
society. It can’t cost food companies much more than 25 cents -
and it is strong (difficult for amateurs to cut).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.
Re my second comment below: I also screwed up by not saying
more on the words “blue biochar”. There is a lot more
literature on the term “blue carbon” - generally meant in the
climate literature to be shorthand for mangroves. This is a
marvelous tree able to thrive in salt and brackish water. I
don’t know if there is a way for Bangladeshi Akha-using
communities to acquire rights to growing and harvesting their
own designated tidewater hectare - but perhaps the Akha team can
find a way. Villages could be assigned their own off-shore
regions, to be relinquished if not used. Some rationing of this
“land” might become necessary if the idea has merit.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>There
are three types of mangroves, each best for declining salinity.,
as one moves inland. Along with some reeds, there is not much
else that can grow on this “land” that I believe Bangladesh
considers it has an excess of. </div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Managing
these trees for energy could possibly double their usual annual
output (coppicing/pollarding rather than cutting down entirely)
- and they of course are wonderful anyway for protecting inland
property against storms, and are much needed for the young of
some fish.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The
above would seem easier to manage that applying the word “blue”
to waters too deep for mangroves, but there may be some other
reasons to prefer kelp. I am NOT giving up on the deeper waters
off Bangladesh - as there is a lot more ocean area available
where mangrove culture couldn’t occur.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.
I’d also like to start a rumor that I was the person who stole
the bag of charcoal. This so that Julien is not himself
accused of this brilliant way to advertise the merits of biochar
and the Akha stove.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 6, 2017, at 10:55 PM, Ronal W. Larson
<<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=utf-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div class="">Julien cc List</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
for the answers below. Good to hear that both users
with and without land see value in making char. No new
questions, two comments</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.
Re a concrete inner cylinder, you said below “..<i
class="">but their smoke-free combustion was less
reliable, and there were some gas burner issues to
solve. “</i></div>
<div class="">It is not obvious to me why either concern
should occur, so I hope stovers everywhere could try
this out. Seems likely to be cheaper (can even maybe
cast in place) and hopefully longer lived. We know
usual cheap steel has a limited life and the best steels
are likely both not readily available and expensive.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
forgot to congratulate on the two metal swinging “doors”
at the bottom. Nice solution.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>2.
Re fuels, the biochar list has had quite a lot of
recent discussion of “blue biochar” - where the source
material is kelp or other seaweeds. Bangladesh is
possibly already in that business, because of its ocean
proximity. This could be a source of employment and a
way to save forests while having a feedstock that should
bring back needed minerals and fertilizer value.
Beating the price of wooden blocks seems possible.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 6, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Julien
Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Hello all;</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks for you comments on the
Akha-Biochar Project in Bangladesh.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The cost and payback is not fully
worked out, because it will take about a year
for TLUD-biochar ecosystem to become established
in community, and it will continue to evolve.
The stove costs about $20 to make, this could be
brought down as numbers of stoves increase.
Also, we are still at the stove-prototype stage,
so we can expect some modifications and fine
tuning. Payback is developing, as farmers and
gardeners discover the value of biochar for food
production. We have "Farmer Biochar User
Groups" that are conducting field trials, so
they can learn from first-hand experience what
biochar can do for them. There are also
graduate students involved in gathering evidence
to make recommendations on optimum application
rates. It could take a couple of years at any
one location for the local population to be able
to place their own value on biochar, and what
they are willing to pay for it. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Whether people use the char
themselves or sell it depends on their personal
opportunities. There are many families that are
landless. Presently, they see char sales as a
way to earn cash or barter. They think that is a
great idea; save fuel, cook faster, AND make
biochar! People with land, especially farmers,
see biochar as a way of making permanent
improvements to the quality of their land, so
expect that using biochar could have very
substantial impact on their family's economic
well being.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">I have been advocating using
biochar in composting, or mixing it with
manure before it goes onto the field. We need
work on using it in human waste management.<br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is no shortage of good soil
scientists and agronomists in Bangladesh to
work on biochar technology. </div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The outer concrete cylinder of the
Akha stove is cast. We have made stoves with
concrete reactors (lined with clay slip), but
their smoke-free combustion was less reliable,
and there were some gas burner issues to solve.
That is not to say that concrete reactors will
not work, but they need quite a bit of research
and development, and a laboratory. Metal TLUD
reactors, on the other hand, are well
understood. About 24 small holes in the side
wall of the metal reactor make the gasification
of chunks of wood more reliable, and less prone
loosing the gas flame. We use cast concrete
(rather than clay) because it is easy to get
concrete rings with flat surfaces at the top and
bottom. The concrete components are made
specifically for the Akha. There are many small
business around who can cast concrete. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mahbubul has been working with
different ratios of Portand cement, sawdust and
biochar dust in the concrete. The more organics,
the lower the heat capacity and heat
conductivity of the stove body. Micro porosity
is supposed to make concrete more resistant heat
by providing spaces for minerals to expand
into. Obviously there is a trade-off between
adding organics and strength of the concrete.
Different recipes are being tested in the
field. It is all trial and error.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mahbubul has also worked with local
ceramic artisans to make the massive stove
components from clay. There very skilled people
to work with, and kaolinitic clay, so ceramic
components are possible. The more metal
components on the stove that we can replace with
ceramics the better, because all metal in
Bangladesh is imported.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The Akha is about 25% more efficient
than a traditional stove. The Akha has gone
through a water-boiling test at a laboratory in
Dhaka, and was about 30% efficient at getting
energy from wood into the water. The main view
that the Akha saves 25% of the wood comes from
household feedback. That is what the women tell
us.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The Akha-Biocahr Project has funding
for its current intervention until 2019. It is
enough to see if the TLUD-biochar technology
will take root. If it does, then the technology
may spread all by itself as local entrepreneurs
see an opportunity. In fact, I think that if
these technologies viable, then they will out of
our control and unstoppable. The 'market' is 25
million homes. All the same, I am trying to
raise money so that Mahbubul and crew remain as
proponents and stakeholders in what they
started. There is work to be done in developing
compressed fuels, because there is not enough
wood in the country. We need to monitor the
impact on forest cover, and make sure that
poorest households don't become energy-starved
if the price of wood goes up.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">One other thing that will push
TLUD-biochar technology forward is that
sea-level rise could flood a third of the
country, so soil productivity needs to increase.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Julien.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
-- <br class="">
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Julien Winter<br
class="">
Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Frank Shields
444 Main Street Apt. 4205
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