<div dir="ltr">Dear Ron: <br><br>All I can say is that you have made no case for the use of WBT by anybody who has an interest in standards of cooking and policy of regulating the stove business. <br><br>That WBT is used by anybody and everybody for decades only confirms my view that the so-called stove science is built on fiction passed as theory. Groupthink. A religion of the faithful, peers praising pals. Means nothing to cooks. <br><br>Nothing worthwhile can be said to inform stove design without keeping the user and her use patterns at the center, and addressing the regional, seasonal, and inter-family (even intra-family) variations in fuels, stove use, and, to keep up with the times, rapid changes in demographics, cultures, and food/cooking habits I have seen in many parts of the world. <br><br>You wrote, "It is argued (by those especially who don’t have one) that stove testing laboratories (the main users of the WBT) are unnecessary. "<br><br>Touche! <br><br>Well, who makes stove testing laboratories use WBT - as you say "some version" of WBT - and why? In this country (US), EPA has neither promulgated nor approved ANY test protocol for cookstoves, so why are Americans spreading the WBT gospel in those parts of the world they know very little about? <br><br>Nobody I know - not even myself - argues that stove testing laboratories are unnecessary. The fundamental question is, what is to be tested and why? Then there can be a debate on how to go about best measuring it. <br><br>I for one believe that lab testing has its limits in showing anything that necessarily determines usability of a stove. The only thing a producer and distributor/installer may warrant is some limited definition of safety and durability, and perhaps not even that; no producer wants to be responsible for misuse of a stove causing a fire. <br><br>With the Lima Consensus/IWA metrics and tiers, all I can say is that they are for some imaginary cooks and imaginary fuels. Sure, a stove designer would submit his stove to testing labs, but he would be stupid to design his stove to score on lab results and not on customers' preferences and desires. <br><br>I hope you find a stove for biochar production that sells and is used. The theory behind TC-285 that somehow stoves ranking high on some metric will produce a high desired impact on the basic rationale for that metric is spurious. <br><br>We are told that the four or five metrics are to be judged independently, so any test protocol would rate a particular stove as, say, XTi, YTj, ZTk, so on, where X is the metric, T the Tier corresponding to that metric, and i, j, k etc. are numbers from 1 to 4.<br><br>The clear purpose of EPA/UNF manipulation of WHO in the TC-285 process is simply this -- anoint stoves NOT using solid fuels as Tier 4, then rationalize billions of dollars of funding to market those stoves and fuels, namely LPG. <br><br>This is clear in the Rosenthal, et al. (2017) <a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjjuO6Q_v3XAhURPN8KHVytB2UQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farticles%2FPMC5226685%2F&usg=AOvVaw3ErScSEK1n6BL-WjcmxxXL" style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:Roboto,arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(102,0,153)">Implementation Science to Accelerate Clean Cooking for Public Health</a> where they speak only of "In choosing among clean fuels or combinations (e.g., LPG, biogas,
alcohol, electricity, solar, tier 4 indoor emissions biomass stoves) and
technologies .." endorsing the Johnson-Chiang view "These findings suggest that
near exclusive, community-wide use of clean fuels is needed to meet
the PM2.5 guideline and to maximize health benefits"<br><br>In the name of "maximizing health benefits" - for which they have zero empirical basis, at most only HAPIT deceit - a propaganda is generated for "clean fuels". <br><br>Which for all practical purposes rules out stoves using solid biomass. <br><br>Back to TC-285 rigmarole. GACC said in 2014, <br><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">"Develop a Cookstove Rating System and
Voluntary Global Standards –<br> <br>The sector has
made considerable progress in the development of a
consensus voluntary global standard. This standard
will enable the rating of cookstoves by emissions,
efficiency, safety, durability, <u>and affordability</u> <u>while
allowing for differences in local conditions and
user behavior.</u> Although the standards could take
a variety of forms, <u>one mechanism that is currently
being explored</u> is the establishment of international
standards through the International Standards
Organization. <u>Such an international consultative
process will take time (perhaps as long as three
years</u>), so in the near-term the sector should develop
an interim tiered rating system to be used while a
voluntary global standard is in formal development" (emphasis added)</blockquote><br>Three years have passed. In another three years, GACC is scheduled to fold. What has boiling water done for TC-285 along the lines of "affordability while allowing for differences in local conditions and user behavior?"<br><br>I rest my case. TC-285 was invented to have an excuse for wasting time and money - to create an appearance that something useful was being done, while an "interim tiered rating system" using WBT was forced upon anybody who was gullible enough or afraid of offending Secretary Clinton. <br><br>TC-285 has zero relevance and should be disbanded. Maybe that would happen when EPA funds for GACC and ANSI run out. Mere WBT and arguing about DE is a red herring. <br><br><br><div>Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 12:21 AM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Xavier, list and ccs<div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I guess (being the only individual named) I have to take up the challenge. This is no fun. I respond because I find your position on the WBT to be devoid of value. I apologize for trying to get this out on the day you sent it - and it is late.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>My evidence on the validity of the present WBT (especially including the “denominator equation” - “DE” = e1/(1-e2) is below in several parts. If you respond, please refer to my numbered points, so we can best understand your reasoning. </div><div><br></div><div>Part I- the WBT and DE</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>a. There are hundreds of articles using the WBT, with no issue of its validity. Those that don’t use the DE also assume there is no char worth keeping track of. I don’t see how that can be a valid reason for not using a DE (and I think they all national stove documents use something like a WBT).</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>b. I know of no article in a peer-reviewed technical journal that gives a rationale for WBT or DE’s discontinuation. The topic seems unique to this list</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>c. Working group 2 of the of the ongoing ISO TC-285 process recently voted overwhelmingly to retain the “DE”. I am not aware of even unpublished critiques that make sense (and I ask for such to be part of your response).</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>d. Working group #1 had a very small group ( I’ve heard 7?) carry a virtual tie in saying that the DE should be removed. Last night, WG#1’s leader, Professor Tami Bond said I (nd others) could forward an explanatory private memo. Others can forward more, but I think these sentences are important re the WBT and DE</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>"<i>There is a current draft in Working Group 2 regarding controlled laboratory testing (it has a formal name that I can’t remember). Its product is under revision after responding to comments from national standard bodies, and has not been published yet. Some of its features have received some of the same criticisms as were provided on the WBT that is in wide public use, yet other contents are different, as happens through discussion.”</i></div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Dr. Bond is not here arguing for removal of the DE, but (unfortunately) there will be some confusion because of a very small number who are misinformed about the DE and voted in an irrational position that has benn rebutted by the vast majority of those involved in this ISO process.</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>e. I say misinformed because both Professor Phillip Lloyd and Crispin showed a few months ago they did not know how to use the DE, (Dr. Lloyd pulled an arbitrary number out of the air in his use of the equation).</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>f. It is argued (by those especially who don’t have one) that stove testing laboratories (the main users of the WBT) are unnecessary. They mostly also seem to couple the WBT with un-needed procedures for CO and particulates (because they don’t believe widely reported health statistics). I say they are valid because they are so widely used. Often used to save governments money (unhealthy citizens are drains on national economies). These rejections of the utility of pollutant measurements are almost identical to efforts to downplay climate impacts - caused by pollutants.</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>g. Something like the WBT is used virtually everywhere. The only places where I believe the DE is not used is where they have not considered char-making to be possible or intelligent or some other unfathomable reason. I challenge anyone who believes cha-making has the least bit of value to give some other means for bringing char-making into the valuation of a stove.</div><div><br></div><div>Part II. Tiers Turning to use of the DE as used in the tier structures (and I believe this is the main beef of those opposed to the WBT)</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>a. It is true that I argue for the WBT because char-making stoves turn out well using the DE. Exceedingly well. It seems that those who argue against the WBT and DE are associated with stoves that don’t do as well.</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>b. I do so now for climate reasons (earlier for forest preservation, health, time-saving and money-making reasons). My experience on this list is that a large majority of those who put down the WBT and the DE have zero concern about the climate impacts of inefficient and polluting stoves (and especially charcoal-using stoves). Such beliefs lack appreciation of climate science; those persons must also have other motives - probably money related.</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>c. I claim the Part I arguments justify its use and I am convinced the DE is totally valid (and can only be obtained through a WBT. So I ask all who respond to this to propose a better means of helping advance stove performance than the tier approach with its present use of the DE results. If not tiers, what?</div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>d. This list has finally had this week a TLUD story from Bangladesh that fully justifies use of the WBT and DE. If the DE was dropped from the tier system (as some on this list have proposed), then the work of Julien and his collaborators would be much delayed. To the disadvantage of those finding a new source of added income.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>It’s late. I may have to add more - on Lima for instance.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><i> </i></div><div><span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div><div><div><div><div class="gmail-h5"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" target="_blank">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><br class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div><div class="gmail-h5"><div class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Hello Frank,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Ahah, there is indeed a pattern, you might have noticed it is usually the following:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>1.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Someone, usually Ron or a member of the GACC, EPA, Aprovecho, D-Lab or Winrock, innocently drops « WBT is a great protocol to make stove improvements » or « you know, there are many supporters of the WBT », somewhere in a post, a handbook or a toolkit<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>2.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Then, some of us howls in indignation, especially me. I start to rant and sound like a broken record. Then I hand over, once again, the pile of evidence, and ask some very simple straightforward questions.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>3.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Suddenly the one in 1. very kindly tells me, in a « ho-it-would-be-so-great-to-<wbr>have-you-there » fashion, to:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 53.4pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>a.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Join the ISO-TC 285 discussions<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 53.4pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>b.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Join a certain conference in the United States<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 53.4pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>c.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Or becomes suddenly completely mute<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0.6pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;text-indent:35.4pt">Often it is a., b. then c.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><span>4.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span>Then a few months pass by, and one beautiful day, we are back to step 1.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">At this point it’s not a rabbit hole, it’s more like a rabbit loop, a rabbit loophole.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><br>Best,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Xavier<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">-----Message d'origine-----<br>De : Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr>bioenergylists.org</a>] De la part de<span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>Envoyé : jeudi 7 décembre 2017 21:56<br>À :<span class="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</a><br>Cc : Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>Objet : Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China and cookstoves]<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Dear Nikhil, Stovers,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Always great news when we start a new year talking WBT. That because it means we are not still down some rabbit hole someone has sent us to wallow around for a few years on some useless idea only to come to the surface and find us where we started (NOWHERE). But now starting at NOWHERE we must be careful we are not diverted down another rabbit hole. Make sure all project proposals involve the 6-Box system or parts of it. That involves both Field and Lab work. Because that is the only way we get control over the variables and move forward. A lot of work needs be done.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Regards<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Frank Shields<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">Gabilan Laboratory<u></u><u></u></div></div><div id="gmail-m_-8338038113196427901DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)"><tbody><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:18px"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" 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href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>