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<p><font size="+1">Hi Michael, Stovers;<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">This is a good example where the 6-Box system
would be useful. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Set up the system so it makes good tea. The
process is to control the variables and modify one at a time to
improve the process. There are lots of steps you can do but
would take some time, test methods and a little equipment. All
simple but not good at this time. Once you have a good fuel,
good technique, and can produce a good cup of tea I suggest the
following:</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box-1) Observe the fuel for size, moisture,
cleanliness etc. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box - 2: Record the process loading the
combustion chamber.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box- 3: Record the combustion chamber; stove
model etc.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box-4: Establish info regarding the utensils
used; metal, size, heavy-light etc.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box-5: Record the process; stirring, amount of
water, amount of tea, sugar added etc.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Box-6: Determine a good repeatable Completion
Point. Perhaps water just starts to boil or i can hold my hand
on the side of the pot for just one second.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">You need to know what an improvement would look
like for you. Quicker tea but not care of amount of fuel. Save
on fuel, walk away with less manipulation, air quality, amount
of char left, quality of char produced, etc. Whats important is
what the end user decides important. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"> <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Now all steps are controlled and should be
repeatable. You can change one Box at a time and see if that
improves the process. Use dryer wood or stir more frequently.
Use a lighter pot or less water. Add wood more frequent in
smaller quantities - try to get the best conditions. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Because no-one else is doing the same system you
will not be able to compare to other systems. But you might be
able to improve your own. And there are lots of measurements for
the fuel that can be made (not described here) but use simple
test methods and no need for a real lab. Perhaps just some basic
equipment. <br>
</font></p>
<br>
<p><font size="+1">Frank</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Gabilan Laboratory<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"> <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/11/17 6:24 PM, Michael N Trevor
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMNT9vHu6U0o8MU+bYpqS6EhcRhP8JoSs+b_1WgO-WuRY5-KOQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Lets look at
this another way.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> NO lab, <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">NO equipment</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">How do I
test? <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I thinking
how well it cooks my tea is a good tool<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Xavier
Brandao <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="#954F72" lang="FR">
<div class="m_-2426642016079343952WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Dear
Kirk,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Thanks
a lot for contributing to the debate, and for
sharing your story.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Now
this is really interesting.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
You developed a stove that is, from what I read,
highly performing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">You
needed to use a lab protocol to develop it, you used
the WBT. You say it allowed you to improve the
stove, to the level it is today.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color:#1f497d">“Perhaps
the same results could have been achieved without
the WBT, but I could not have measured them, so
there might have been changes in the stove that
made no improvement because I couldn’t test them.
A lot of luck would have been involved.”</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">You
could have improved your stove while using another
lab protocol. There are other lab protocols allowing
to measure the performance without relying on luck,
of course there are.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">The
questions that I think of: were some of the results
of the WBT useful, some other misleading? All of
them useful? Did you develop and improve your stove
thank to, or despite the WBT? Would you have made
your stove better with another lab protocol, or
worse?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">It
would be great to compare the way you did the
testing with the WBT, and the way you would have
done it with another lab protocol. And see how
results may have differed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
Can people working with other protocols on the List
react?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><br>
Xavier</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Stoves [mailto:<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr>bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Kirk H.<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mardi 12 décembre 2017 02:12<br>
<b>À :</b> Ronal W. Larson; Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Stoves] stove</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ron and All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I did use
the WBT to develop the Wonderwerk 316 stove. It
was however only part of the overall testing.
Mainly I used it to test changes in the stove
intended to get more of the heat produced by the
stove to the surface of the pot, and less heat
lost out the sides of the stove. I used the
same pot/skirt/pot-stand combination through all
of this part of the testing, so the WBT showed
only the results of the changes in the stove. I
was not so concerned about the geometry of the
cooking surface because it will change for
different uses; pot, frying pan, wok, plancha,
or whatever. I was concerned only with getting
the most possible heat that is produced by the
stove to the cooking surface. Perhaps the same
results could have been achieved without the
WBT, but I could not have measured them, so
there might have been changes in the stove that
made no improvement because I couldn’t test
them. A lot of luck would have been involved.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This way of
using the WBT was only at Aprovecho. At Berkely
we were testing the stove as designed at
Aprovecho, not making changes. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kirk H.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sent from <a
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Mail</a> for Windows 10</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
lang="EN-US"><a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal
W. Larson</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 11, 2017 3:32
PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Kirk
H.</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: stove</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kirk:</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_-2426642016079343952apple-tab-span"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
lang="EN-US">Nice.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="m_-2426642016079343952apple-tab-span"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
lang="EN-US">The stove list has had a lot of
disagreement about the water boiling test
(WBT). Can you say that you used that a lot
to make iterative improvements? And
eventually of course at Apro and Berkeley.
Any way that today’s results could have been
made without the WBT?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ron</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Dec
11, 2017, at 3:44 PM, Kirk H. <<a
href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sent
from<span
class="m_-2426642016079343952apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#954f72">Mail</span></a><span
class="m_-2426642016079343952apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows
10</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><Kirk
stove.mp4></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Frank Shields
444 Main Street Apt. 4205
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 246-0417 cell
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a></pre>
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