<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi all - see inserts below:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 11, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Ron,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You have gone pretty far in the past with fallacious reasoning, but this email takes the cake. We are now in uncharted territory.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Basically, this is your whole argumentation here:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">"I say they are valid because they are so widely used"<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Ron, please re-read 7 times this sentence out loud just to measure how ridiculous it is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I'll tell you other things people widely do:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely eat McDonalds<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believe in sorcery and spirits<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believe in different kind of gods<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believed the sun was rotating around the Earth<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So many people can’t be wrong, ain't it?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: Sorry. I stand by my statement. I meant in the context of arguing about whether the earth is flat or round. More in closing.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How are people supposed to know how the WBT works?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: I’m trying to hurry this, so I hope others will see if there are others better than found in my google search “<i class="">water boiling test EPA stoves”</i></b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> How are they supposed to know that it is not reliable?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: They’ll know when someone writes a paper on that topic in a peer-reviewed technical journal. I know of no article (hope there is one) on why testing labs get different results than in the field. But a big part has to be how good the testing labs are. I doubt there are many cases when the testing lab gives the lower efficiency. When I have watched lab testing, the dedicated tester NEVER left the front of the stove. I’ll bet there are huge differences in the results between rocket and TLD type stoves - as there is almost nothing todo with the latter during a test. </b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Those who advocate(d) for the WBT while aware of the issues are responsible of this state of affairs.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: The “who advocated” have overwhelmingly approved it - and are happy with the “state of affairs”.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I'll tell you what happened. A group of people invented the WBT. There was nothing at the time, some protocol had to be created and used. It's perfectly fine. Then more people started to use it. Without reviewing it. Testing reports started to pile. At some point, a few studies started to be published pointing at some serious flaws in the WBT. No one bothered about that, the WBT continued to be used, reports kept piling. Then more studies, on other issues, were published. Still no one was taking action. Sunk cost. The further you go, the more difficult it is to go back. The WBT has never been reviewed, except by the studies I was mentioning, and they all say there are serious problems with it.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: I gave a reference a few months ago to Dr. Bond that was about 100 years old using the WBT - with the “DE”. Where do I go to find a corroboration of your version of this (sinister?) “group of people”?</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I respond because I find your position on the WBT to be devoid of value. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Why? Please explain.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: I gave a full set of reasons, which are following as Ia-If and IIa-IId (which labels I wish you had kept - to save me time)</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« There are hundreds of articles using the WBT, with no issue of its validity. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Of course, they have never studied the WBT, never reviewed it!</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL7(a): You underestimate the group you are maligning. Care to give any names for this group that has never studied the WBT?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> They have been told to use the WBT, so they tested, and they reported. The WBT was supposed to have had the state-of-the-art research and updates, why would they not use it?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL8(a): Many dozens of experts have approved it over the last several years in the ISO process. Where have you received your version of the voting? We are talking here of I believe 25 countries.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I know of no article in a peer-reviewed technical journal that gives a rationale for WBT or DE’s discontinuation. The topic seems unique to this list »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">If something is not in a peer-reviewed technical journal, it doesn’t exist?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL9(b): No it can exist - just not to be believed whole cloth. Where is the evidence that the WBT is so bad?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">There is a serious rationale explaining the problems and why the WBT is broken. The peer-reviewed articles explain why it is not reliable.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL10(b): It may exist, but you haven’t told where to find these article are on unreliability..</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">There is one little more step to take, and this step, researchers are not willing to take it. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL11(b): I claim they have been taken - and we will see it when the WGII report is released. Where do you get your information that researchers were so lax?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Because it is not their job, or so they think. Scientists usually think their role is to state facts. From facts, conclusions and actions can be taken.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This step is left to political actors, NGOs like Winrock, international organizations like GACC, implementers, or activists.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL12(b): I continue to believe in my friends - AND because I have seen nothing in print to deny what they tell me. I know a lot of scientists and none fit your description; they do a lot more than “state facts”.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>NOTE: My items c and d are missing. They are (important-to-me) references to the ISO process - which you are saying is wrong. You need these to understand my point (e), coming up.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I say misinformed because both Professor Phillip Lloyd and Crispin showed a few months ago they did not know how to use the DE, (Dr. Lloyd pulled an arbitrary number out of the air in his use of the equation). »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How so? How should the DE be used then?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL13(e): Just as it has been proposed for about a century in hundreds of papers: e3=e1/(1-e2). A VERY solid equation where every term is understood - including the negative sign. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I have not had time to work up a proof using a triangular plot - the three corners are A= e1 = stove energy; B=e2 = charcoal energy; C= inefficiency. The sum of A+B+C anywhere in the interior of the triangle is unity. The input energy can ONLY go these three ways. I’m trying to get time to show where the DE shows up on this chart. You can’t do this on normal x-y plots. I hope someone will take this hint and beat me to it.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The DE tells one how to move from the middle of the triangle to the edge where B = e2 = 0.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I challenge you and anyone on the list to give any other formula that fairly gives credit to a co-product that can have value (in some cases) large than the cooking value. In the case of a few percentage of char, it is the ONLY way to give a valid (larger) value for e1.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You talk a lot about the Denominator Equation, but to me, it is another matter. I don’t have an opinion about it, and I haven’t seen convincing facts from you who put into question what Tami and Crispin said.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL14e: I know you talk to Crispin who has argued strongly against the DE, but I doubt Dr. Bond is in agreement. The “convincing facts” are in the triangle diagram - plus common sense and the agreement of the vast majority of those who have fought to keep the DE in place. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It does seem to me that you have a strong opinion on it.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You can continue the conversation about the DE with them, but whether the DE is valid or not has no impact on all the other questions about the unreliability of the WBT.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">With or without the DE, the WBT is unreliable.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL15e: I hope I don’t have to repeat many more times that it IS reliable - and you have not proven the converse.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It is argued (by those especially who don’t have one) that stove testing laboratories (the main users of the WBT) are unnecessary. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Who said that? Certainly not me nor the proponents of alternative testing. Laboratory testing is useful, and laboratories are useful. The WBT is not. CSI and HTP are laboratory protocols. You refused to read these protocols.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL16(f): I’m glad to hear some of this from you. Thanks. I am referring to remarks by Crispin - and hope others can give an exact quote his in the last two weeks - on not needing a laboratory.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I did NOT refuse to read the CSI and HTP; I have read them. I do not claim to be an expert on them - but am pretty sure they heat water (I can’t keep all the acronyms straight). Please give cites for each - and I’ll report back to this list on their use of heating water (e1) and measuring char (e2). Inexplicably, there are some test procedures that seem to feel that charcoal is a made-up entity, that never needed to be measured.</b></div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Note to others: My point (g) is also missing - on the DE - where I said what I just repeated.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The following are my four points on the Tier system.</div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It is true that I argue for the WBT because char-making stoves turn out well using the DE. Exceedingly well. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Not sure this in a paper would pass the peer-reviewing …</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL17(a): Me either. I am here telling everyone where I am coming from - that Tiers are important to me (And thankfully they have NOT been dropped). Without the Tier system, I am sure there would be much less progress. (Thinking here of a message tonight from Kirk Harris.)</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If you were a major sponsor or stove buyer, would you prefer to know Tier levels or not?</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If you believe stoves have health impacts, would you pay attention to Tier levels? How are you going to get repeatability on pollutant release without a WBT?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It seems that those who argue against the WBT and DE are associated with stoves that don’t do as well. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Who then? Give names. Stop just making allegations.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL18(b): I ask anyone who is a supporter of TLUDs whether they also oppose Tiers. We all know that winners rarely critique the rules. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I chose not to embarrass anyone specific. Do you really think I made a mistake there?</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; widows: auto;"><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I do so now for climate reasons (earlier for forest preservation, health, time-saving and money-making reasons). My experience on this list is that a large majority of those who put down the WBT and the DE have zero concern about the climate impacts of inefficient and polluting stoves (and especially charcoal-using stoves). Such beliefs lack appreciation of climate science; those persons must also have other motives - probably money related. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-weight: normal; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Please say who are those persons and what are those other motives? Do you have facts corroborating that?</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p class=""><b class="">[RWL:(19c): I</b></o:p></span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">’ll continue my practice of not naming such. But they tend to talk about the beauty of coal-fired stoves. </b></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The “ acts” come from what they say on this list and off-line conversations over about 10 years. I suggest looking at who refers us to the “Watt’s Up With That” site (the site given most credit in denier circles)</b></font></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px; white-space: normal;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></span></font></span><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« This list has finally had this week a TLUD story from Bangladesh that fully justifies use of the WBT and DE. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How? Can you explain?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL20 (d): TLUD stoves have had only a very limited testing period where the char was placed in soil. Dr. Winter greatly surprise me last week when he told us how much the soil improvement spect of his stove has influenced consumer reaction. Users were making money while cooking.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If there were no Tier system giving (appropriate and accurate) value to char-making, then those stoves and users would not receive the credit they deserve (and the world needs) for carbon removal.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I’ll tell you something Ron, just to make things very clear:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I think the TLUD technology is by far the most exciting and promising stove technology right now, and that includes the char-making stoves<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I think that anthropogenic climate change is real, and that it is one of the main threats for the humanity and other living species on this planet</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL20: Thanks for the clarification. I had not been thinking of you in the WUWT camp</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">All that is beyond the point.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL21: Nope - it is my main point.</b></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">We are now talking about the WBT, and there are scientific facts showing it is unreliable, and so far you haven’t been able to reply to my questions, and to prove these facts wrong.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL22: If you provided any scientific facts above I failed to see them. The main peer-reviewed paper claiming anything like this was saying there need to be more replications. I specifically asked the main author whether he concerns about the WBT itself and he said no. I asked for specifics and you have provided none.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Ron, you are supposed to be a scientist, to have a critical mind, to judge on facts only, and not on trends nor emotions.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL23: Yup my point IIa was supposed to tell everyone that this is a topic on which I get emotional. That does not mean that I should or did or would want to ignore facts. I think I have provide plenty above. You have not. I’m waiting. </b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I also believe that everyone has and should have emotions. It wouldn’t surprise me that some of the best papers come from those with emotional attachments.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I should also admit here that I get emotional when people like Nikhil give no credit to anything that EPA (mostly the EPA stove group can be called scientists). He is not acting in a scientific manner at all (close to zero reference to peer-reviewed literature). Same for his critique of GACC - totally unwarranted (and emotional and un-scientific). </b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Please let’s discuss facts.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This sentence: « they are valid because they are so widely used » would have founding fathers and mothers of science throw themselves out the window, if they could.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I go back to whether you would say the same if we were arguing about the earth’s sphericity? You are arguing against a position which has major support in the stove improvement community. I’m glad you are not a denier, but your argument against terms like “97%” are exactly those of deniers. I repeat: show me a cogent article in print on why the WBT (and the DE) should not be accepted without reservation.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">(re-read, but I have to stop now, given the hour.)</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">Xavier<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>samedi 9 décembre 2017 06:22<br class=""><b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; Xavier Brandao<br class=""><b class="">Cc :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nikhil Desai; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Paul Anderson; Julien Winter<br class=""><b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China and cookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Xavier, list and ccs<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I guess (being the only individual named) I have to take up the challenge. This is no fun. I respond because I find your position on the WBT to be devoid of value. I apologize for trying to get this out on the day you sent it - and it is late.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>My evidence on the validity of the present WBT (especially including the “denominator equation” - “DE” = e1/(1-e2) is below in several parts. If you respond, please refer to my numbered points, so we can best understand your reasoning. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Part I- the WBT and DE<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>a. There are hundreds of articles using the WBT, with no issue of its validity. Those that don’t use the DE also assume there is no char worth keeping track of. I don’t see how that can be a valid reason for not using a DE (and I think they all national stove documents use something like a WBT).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>b. I know of no article in a peer-reviewed technical journal that gives a rationale for WBT or DE’s discontinuation. The topic seems unique to this list<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>c. Working group 2 of the of the ongoing ISO TC-285 process recently voted overwhelmingly to retain the “DE”. I am not aware of even unpublished critiques that make sense (and I ask for such to be part of your response).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>d. Working group #1 had a very small group ( I’ve heard 7?) carry a virtual tie in saying that the DE should be removed. Last night, WG#1’s leader, Professor Tami Bond said I (nd others) could forward an explanatory private memo. Others can forward more, but I think these sentences are important re the WBT and DE<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>"<i class="">There is a current draft in Working Group 2 regarding controlled laboratory testing (it has a formal name that I can’t remember). Its product is under revision after responding to comments from national standard bodies, and has not been published yet. Some of its features have received some of the same criticisms as were provided on the WBT that is in wide public use, yet other contents are different, as happens through discussion.”</i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Dr. Bond is not here arguing for removal of the DE, but (unfortunately) there will be some confusion because of a very small number who are misinformed about the DE and voted in an irrational position that has benn rebutted by the vast majority of those involved in this ISO process.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>e. I say misinformed because both Professor Phillip Lloyd and Crispin showed a few months ago they did not know how to use the DE, (Dr. Lloyd pulled an arbitrary number out of the air in his use of the equation).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>f. It is argued (by those especially who don’t have one) that stove testing laboratories (the main users of the WBT) are unnecessary. They mostly also seem to couple the WBT with un-needed procedures for CO and particulates (because they don’t believe widely reported health statistics). I say they are valid because they are so widely used. Often used to save governments money (unhealthy citizens are drains on national economies). These rejections of the utility of pollutant measurements are almost identical to efforts to downplay climate impacts - caused by pollutants.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>g. Something like the WBT is used virtually everywhere. The only places where I believe the DE is not used is where they have not considered char-making to be possible or intelligent or some other unfathomable reason. I challenge anyone who believes cha-making has the least bit of value to give some other means for bringing char-making into the valuation of a stove.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Part II. Tiers Turning to use of the DE as used in the tier structures (and I believe this is the main beef of those opposed to the WBT)<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>a. It is true that I argue for the WBT because char-making stoves turn out well using the DE. Exceedingly well. It seems that those who argue against the WBT and DE are associated with stoves that don’t do as well.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>b. I do so now for climate reasons (earlier for forest preservation, health, time-saving and money-making reasons). My experience on this list is that a large majority of those who put down the WBT and the DE have zero concern about the climate impacts of inefficient and polluting stoves (and especially charcoal-using stoves). Such beliefs lack appreciation of climate science; those persons must also have other motives - probably money related.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>c. I claim the Part I arguments justify its use and I am convinced the DE is totally valid (and can only be obtained through a WBT. So I ask all who respond to this to propose a better means of helping advance stove performance than the tier approach with its present use of the DE results. If not tiers, what?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>d. This list has finally had this week a TLUD story from Bangladesh that fully justifies use of the WBT and DE. If the DE was dropped from the tier system (as some on this list have proposed), then the work of Julien and his collaborators would be much delayed. To the disadvantage of those finding a new source of added income.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>It’s late. I may have to add more - on Lima for instance.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""> </i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Hello Frank,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Ahah, there is indeed a pattern, you might have noticed it is usually the following:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">1.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Someone, usually Ron or a member of the GACC, EPA, Aprovecho, D-Lab or Winrock, innocently drops « WBT is a great protocol to make stove improvements » or « you know, there are many supporters of the WBT », somewhere in a post, a handbook or a toolkit<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">2.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Then, some of us howls in indignation, especially me. I start to rant and sound like a broken record. Then I hand over, once again, the pile of evidence, and ask some very simple straightforward questions.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">3.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Suddenly the one in 1. very kindly tells me, in a « ho-it-would-be-so-great-to-have-you-there » fashion, to:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 53.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">a.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Join the ISO-TC 285 discussions<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 53.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">b.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Join a certain conference in the United States<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 53.4pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">c.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Or becomes suddenly completely mute<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 0.6pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 35.4pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Often it is a., b. then c.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">4.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Then a few months pass by, and one beautiful day, we are back to step 1.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">At this point it’s not a rabbit hole, it’s more like a rabbit loop, a rabbit loophole.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""><br class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Xavier<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">-----Message d'origine-----<br class="">De : Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>] De la part de<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">franke@cruzio.com</span></a><br class="">Envoyé : jeudi 7 décembre 2017 21:56<br class="">À :<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</span></a><br class="">Cc : Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br class="">Objet : Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China and cookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Dear Nikhil, Stovers,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Always great news when we start a new year talking WBT. That because it means we are not still down some rabbit hole someone has sent us to wallow around for a few years on some useless idea only to come to the surface and find us where we started (NOWHERE). But now starting at NOWHERE we must be careful we are not diverted down another rabbit hole. Make sure all project proposals involve the 6-Box system or parts of it. That involves both Field and Lab work. Because that is the only way we get control over the variables and move forward. A lot of work needs be done.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Frank Shields<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas;" class="">Gabilan Laboratory<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellpadding="0" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(211, 212, 222); border-top-width: 1pt;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="55" style="width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 13.5pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple; text-decoration: none;" class=""><img border="0" width="46" height="29" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" class=""></span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></td><td width="470" style="width: 352.5pt; border: none; padding: 12.75pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 13.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(65, 66, 78);" class="">Garanti sans virus.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234);" class="">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""></span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class=""></span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class=""></span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>