<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.msonormal00, li.msonormal00, div.msonormal00
{mso-style-name:msonormal0;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.msochpdefault, li.msochpdefault, div.msochpdefault
{mso-style-name:msochpdefault;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
p.HTML-forhndsformatert, li.HTML-forhndsformatert, div.HTML-forhndsformatert
{mso-style-name:HTML-forhåndsformatert;
mso-style-link:"HTML-forhåndsformatert Tegn";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.HTML-forhndsformatertTegn
{mso-style-name:"HTML-forhåndsformatert Tegn";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:HTML-forhåndsformatert;
font-family:Consolas;}
span.htmlpreformattedchar0
{mso-style-name:htmlpreformattedchar;
font-family:Consolas;}
span.emailstyle22
{mso-style-name:emailstyle22;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle26
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle28
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor="white" lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thank you Jorend for the update. I was only aware that he had models other than the ones initially included in the CSI Pilot.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I have reviewed tests of the a couple of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Jorund Buen [mailto:jorund.buen@primestoves.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11-Dec-17 02:37<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Crispin Pemberton-Pigott' <crispinpigott@outlook.com>; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Julien Winter' <winter.julien@gmail.com>; 'Mahbubul Islam - Bangladesh with Julien W' <mailccdb@gmail.com>; 'Kirk Harris' <kgharris@sonic.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SV: Side holes in TLUD reactor (was Re: [Stoves] Bangladesh TLUD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Crispin,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Prof Nurhuda is testing different stoves, in coordination with Prime, which Prime then may decide to commercialise.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Jorund Buen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">CEO<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Prime Cookstoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Skype ID: jorundb1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Mobile: +47 932 83 350<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"><a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.primestoves.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccb3ab671272b4982dd0c08d5400dd0c7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636485350438619413&sdata=aCIE8Lf9yzCVPSXQAX4DV52sInVgLaQVbDwAeum6lCk%3D&reserved=0"><span style="color:#0563C1;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">www.primestoves.com</span></a></span><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="NO-BOK">Fra:</span></b><span lang="NO-BOK"> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott [<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> lørdag 9. desember 2017 16:57<br>
<b>Til:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Kopi:</b> Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>>; Mahbubul Islam - Bangladesh with Julien W <<a href="mailto:mailccdb@gmail.com">mailccdb@gmail.com</a>>; Jorund Buen - Norway - Prime stoves <<a href="mailto:jorund.buen@primestoves.com">jorund.buen@primestoves.com</a>>;
Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: Side holes in TLUD reactor (was Re: [Stoves] Bangladesh TLUD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">Dear Paul</span><span lang="NO-BOK" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">While some stove models of Dr Nurhuda's were licensed to Prime, he has other models that are not, more recent ones, also submitted to various projects for evaluation. We're
you aware of that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">One of the great drawbacks of TLUD's is flame stability. An approach to control the unwanted extinction of a smoke burning flame is to ensure there is a pilot flame below
the main one set in a way they burns some of the char. The number of them is not important, the presence is.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">The great TLUD's burn to extinction leaving no smoke at flame-out. That is not to say there is no pulse of CO, but I have seen at YDD some that achieve a high degree of
volatile burnout before the flame extinguishes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">The best way to achieve this enviable result is to preheat the flame's air and to give it very effective protection from cross drafts. The Vesto uses a triple shell. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">We have discussed the toroidal flow of air in the zone above the char. That is a viable alternative way to keep the flame going. Generally speaking it means the vertical
gas velocity is low so power is not high per sq cm of reactor space. Even when the torus is working well, it is safer to have one 'lick' of flame hugging a secondary air jet. Continuous re-ignition.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">Regards <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D">Crispin <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"></span><span lang="NO-BOK" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK">Crispin,<br>
<br>
Subject line changed because this topic merit further, on goind discussion (and is about holes, not about Bangladesh).<br>
<br>
Your comments below are totally correct and raise important questions. I focus here on the second one, about the side holes.<br>
<br>
You point out the multitude of side holes in the Prime stoves (designed by Prof. Nurhuda and sold by Prime, led by Jorund Buen). And that the Vest has three. Paal Wendelbo's Peko Pe has several. Anderson's Champion TLUD (and derivatives in Uganda by Awamu)
has none. Paul Wever's large tall TLUDs (Chip Energy, Stove-pipe stoves) have a few. And Kirk Harris also deals with the "pilot light" topic to sustain the flame. And we can add more to this list, even to note those that do not have any side holes.
<br>
<br>
My few trials years ago with some holes was inconclusive, but I now think to seriosly consider them again.
<br>
<br>
Many, 9, 3, zero is certainly a wide range. <br>
<br>
So, let's try to collectively become better informed about this. So far, the "theory" (shown to work) is that a small entry of secondary air just above the slowly decending level of the top of the charcoal inside a TLUD stove, produces as small flame (usually
light blue because ti is burning CO and maybe H.)<br>
<br>
Okay, how many holes? positions? diameters? And what factors (including diameter and height of the fuel chamber, fuel, ND vs FA) are to be considered.<br>
<br>
In the end, the practical, funcitonal results are what matter. So experiments are important to do and to be reported.<br>
<br>
Comments, please. [This topic could be an example of why and how the Stoves Listserv is really valuable.]<br>
<br>
Paul <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="NO-BOK">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="NO-BOK">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="NO-BOK">Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="NO-BOK">Website: <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca52b825c8e214783d4dd08d53f16ca16%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636484289464687418&sdata=PtDBspGbA9q%2FKqKtWxRSdldnbWbB5LaEnW6b2dRnTJQ%3D&reserved=0">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK">On 12/9/2017 7:47 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK">Dear Paul and Julien<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK">I am responding to Paul’s comments on Julien’s earlier message.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK">On Dec 7, 2017, at 6:51 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK">> 1. The thermal mass is estracting heat, meaning cooler gases inside the chamber, with risk of insufficient temperature for ignition at the top, especially when nearing the end of pyrolysis.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK">Before anyone worries about heat going into the stove body, please perform the trivial calculation about
<i>how much</i> heat we are talking about. Just because heat goes into a stove body does not mean a) it is significant, b) that it happens at a time that affects performance of the cooking experience, c) that it is not returned later in the session (which is
cooking behaviour-dependent.) Yes, there is heat invested in the stove and usually it is a loss, but the other features of the stove may not only recover that heat through other energy paths, it may make the stove far more accessible by being cheap and easy
to make from local materials.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK"><br>
2. The concrete (or ceramic) inner cylinder does not have any of the side holes (24 in the metal version). Such holes allow for some "pilot light" effect after the char level is below a hole.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK">Dr Nurhuda’s very successful TLUD stove had such pilots sprinkled around the fuel chamber. The Vesto uses three holes only, and the purpose is to maintain pilot lights to ensure the flame
never goes out. They are placed in a way that guarantees a small portion of char is burned and there is never a need to relight because of a gust of wind.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:36.0pt"><span lang="NO-BOK"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="NO-BOK" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>