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Crispin, see below.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/11/2017 9:56 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I am
surprised by the description of charcoal combustion offered
below. If you hold that a TLUD is making a combustible gas
then burning it separately, would you not also apply this
same definition to charcoal?</span></p>
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</blockquote>
Certainly not. And you provide the reason for the difference.
You point out (next lines that are your writing) that
char-gasification occurs directly on the surface of the char. So
there is no movement of a gas (supposedly CO?) to a different
position where it is combusted to CO2. <br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A
charcoal gasifier, such as that produced by YDD in
Yogyakarta, is a TLUD that makes CO. A charcoal burner might
make gas first and might now. Carbon will go directly to CO2
on the surface of the char above 400 C with a probability of
about 6/7. The other 1/7 it goes to CO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A
bottom-lit updraft charcoal fire like a BBQ is fundamentally
different from a charcoal gasifying TLUD making CO, don’t
you agree?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Again, no. Both are piles of hot charcoal that are receiving air
from underneath. With equal amounts of air from underneath, both
would make CO2 and CO is similar amounts. <br>
<br>
The TLUD is not trying to create CO that will rise to then be burned
where the secondary air enters. If that actually functioned well, we
would expect to see a nice light blue flame of CO combustion at the
level of the secondary air entry, which does not happen. <br>
<br>
When air comes up under the hot char, there is char gasification
that does not selectively stop at CO instead of going to CO2.
(Reference: Your statement above about 6/7ths going to CO2. I do
not know the original source, but I will accept your statement as
correct until shown otherwise.)<br>
<br>
Do you accept my comments as correct? As you have said at other
times, established science is not subject to a vote. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks<br>
Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> Stoves
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 12-Dec-17 08:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Understanding TLUDs, MPF
and more. (was Re: Bangladesh TLUD )<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Scott and Todd, (another of 3
replies to about a dozen messages on this topic. Not in any
special order. I thank everyone for their comments.)<br>
<br>
The essence of TLUD operations is the pyrolysis stage. Stoves
that are true TLUDs and THEN continue to consume the char
(which is called "char gasification") will end up with only
ash. They were operated in two ombustion modes (first was
TLUD pyrolysis, and second was charcoal burning). Those could
be valid as stoves, but the second mode should be noted, and
not simply called TLUD only stoves.
<br>
<br>
The other type of stove is the "fan jet" or high vortex
stoves like the Philips /ACE, which are designed to push
plenty of secondary air downward onto the top of the created
char, with the result of very little char production. I
prefer to not call them TLUD stoves, and instead use a name
that is appropriate to recognize the distinctive way those
stoves work, which may be more desireable to some people. Why
call it a TLUD and not take credit for the powerful fan
features?
<br>
<br>
Todd might specifically identify which stoves he is
mentioning. [That would be a very appropriate discussion of
the stoves that he is able to provide to interested people.
And DO include the prices.]<br>
<br>
Ron's comments about the 3 main ways of handling the char (his
message dated 10 Dec) is well stated. (He asked for my
opinion.)<br>
<br>
Paul <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C6fd7255756764eba5e3908d54105804a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636486414232512073&sdata=OugKAl%2BAmoXbvfooVGjZ20b4q2VIOeOuf9ph4Bb129c%3D&reserved=0" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/10/2017 2:25 PM, Scott Zager wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for helping a novice along.
Todd has help clarify that there are many types of TLUDs.
Are they all intended to be gasifiers with a secondary
combustion chamber or collection tank for wood-gas? Is it
still pyrolysis if the stove combusts char to ash? Perhaps
I should continue reading the literature. Thanks again for
your patient assistance.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scott Zager<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Stoves [<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Todd Albi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 10, 2017 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Understanding TLUDs, MPF and
more. (was Re: Bangladesh TLUD )<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Scott:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Different TLUD stoves are designed to
accomplish different tasks. There are TLUDs designed
for different tasks. Char production will differs
considerably from one design to another. Many high
efficiency TLUDs designed for wok cooking produce
minimal, if any char. There are lots of fan assisted
TLUDs and natural draft TLUDs, designed for cooking that
produce minimal char, only minimal fine ash. Therefore
your glossary is incorrect leading off with the
statement
<i>TLUDs automatically make char</i> would be incorrect
for many TLUDs that are designed for cooking. Although
there a number of natural draft cooking TLUDs designs
too, that the definition maybe be somewhat accurate
for. Our organization has several TLUDs designed for
cooking that produce only a thimble full of fine ash
after cooking. Those cooking implements obviously would
no value for a stover, who sits on the bio char
production interest side of the fence.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Many of the stove designs on this
list have variable design advantages, disadvantages,
<i>depending on desired performance outcomes</i> of
stove design. I'd contend more complicated combination
cooking and thermal siphon heating stove designs,
typically compact stove designs with fans, large
combustion chambers, and water tanks, would not be
viable transferring heat into larger volumes of water
(high mass), if designed to produced char at the same
time. Large volumes of char would impede ventilation
and heat transfer, that is required to maximize heat
transfer into the water. Heating the water would be the
greater energy task, to reach the desired goal of
thermal siphoning in this simplified example. In this
type of stove, char production would reduce stove
thermal efficiency required to maximize heat transfer to
the water tank. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Todd Albi, SilverFire<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<br>
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