<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Xavier et al:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I have just sent out two other messages with your name - that answer this below a bit. Obviously I am not going to respond again to topics that haven’t changed, but I like your long list of “WBT negatives” papers and will try to get through a good many this weekend. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I happened to have found another by some of the same authors that I think points out the value of what is now going on in the ISO process. That paper on TLUDs is found at: <a href="https://ijabe.org/index.php/ijabe/article/viewFile/2963/pdf" class="">https://ijabe.org/index.php/ijabe/article/viewFile/2963/pdf</a></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Effects of biomass pellet composition on the thermal and
emissions performances of a TLUD cooking stove
Zhang Zongxi1,2,3, Sun Zhenfeng4
, Zhang Yinghua5
, Ding Hongyan6
, Zhou Yuguang1,2,3*
,
Zhang Yixiang1,2,3,7, Riaz Ahmad1,2,3, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott2,3, Dong Renjie1,2,3</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This achieves a record low for TLUDs of 10% efficiency - whereas Julien, Kirk, Paul and others are at 40% and more. I’ll try tp get some comments in tomorrow on that, but would love to hear (on list or off-list) from anyone who has knowledge of any of these dozen below (to save me time):</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Lombardi F., Riva F., Bonamini G., Barbieri J., Colombo E., Laboratory protocols for testing of Improved Cooking Stoves (ICSs): A review of state-of-the-art and further developments, 06/02/2017 <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X" class="" style="color: purple;">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X</a> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Lombardi F., Riva F., Colombo E., Guidelines for reporting and analysing laboratory test results for biomass cooking stoves, 01/2017 <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_an" class="" style="color: purple;">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_an</a> d_analysing_laboratory_test_results_for_biomass_cooking_stoves <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Riva F., Lombardi F., Pavarini C., Colombo E., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves, 09/07/2016 <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_" class="" style="color: purple;">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_</a>of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three__Stone_fire_cookstoves <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Bailis R., Berrueta V., Chengappa C., Dutta K., Edwards R., Masera O., Performance testing for monitoring improved biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70., 2007 <a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type" class="" style="color: purple;">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type</a> =pdf <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Pendelton Taylor R., The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol, 2009 <a href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd" class="" style="color: purple;">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">L’Orange C., DeFoort M., Willson B., Influence of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and development of an improved testing protocol, 2009 <a href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testingparameters.pdf" class="" style="color: purple;">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testingparameters.pdf</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Gorrity M., Trujillo G., Quality assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT, 2013 <a href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%252" class="" style="color: purple;">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%2</a>0Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%2 0Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Ding H., Liu J., Zhang Y., Dong R., Pang C., Key factors of thermal efficiency test protocols, 2013 <a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&ty" class="" style="color: purple;">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&ty</a> pe=pdf <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Zhang Y., Pemberton-Pigott C., Zhang Z., Ding H., Zhou Y., Dong R., Key differences of performance test protocols for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11., 2014 <a href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/" class="" style="color: purple;">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a> To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically). <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Wang Y., Sohn MD., How many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always adequate., 2014 <a href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-etal._final.pdf" class="" style="color: purple;">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-etal._final.pdf</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Lloyd P., Annegarn H., Pemberton-Pigott C., Towards a standard for clean solidfuelled cookstoves, 2015 <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_cle" class="" style="color: purple;">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_cle</a> an_solid-fuelled_cookstoves <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;"><span class="">·<span class="" style="font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> </span></span></span><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Zhang Z., Zhang Y., Zhou Y., Riaz A., Pemberton-Pigott C., Annegarn H., Dong R., Systematic and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves, 2016 <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_" class="" style="color: purple;">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_</a>errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Deferring response on most of this below. Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 15, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Ron,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">[RWL1: Sorry. I stand by my statement. I meant in the context of arguing about whether the earth is flat or round. More in closing.<o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Then I don’t know what to say.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">OK, maybe more in closing as well.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« How are people supposed to know how the WBT works?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">[RWL2: I’m trying to hurry this, so I hope others will see if there are others better than found in my google search “water boiling test EPA stoves” »<o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I’m not sure I understand what you mean, but there’s one thing that is very clear.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">When you are a manufacturer or project leader, and you read the WBT protocol and follow it, and record your test results, you have no way to know that the protocol is very broken inside and that its results are meaningless.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You would need to be a researcher knowledgeable about heat principles and test procedures, and to purposely study the WBT, and challenge it, and then only, you can find there’s something wrong with it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hence the high number of tests done with the WBT. People just didn’t know.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The fact that so many people eat food that was grown while using Monsanto pesticides means that the farmers proved Monsanto pesticides are harmless?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">They’ll know when someone writes a paper on that topic in a peer-reviewed technical journal.<o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you think a small company in India or South America scans every week the Elsevier publications to see if a, say, team from Milano published a paper with an obscure title about protocols for cooking stoves?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Or do you think they’ll go to the GACC website, to the page with protocols because the nice lady from GACC told them so at the last conference? Tell me?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">I know of no article (hope there is one) on why testing labs get different results than in the field.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">WBT results, not CSI results.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yet everyone says that WBT get different results in the lab, than in the field, even the Aprovecho.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">When I have watched lab testing, the dedicated tester NEVER left the front of the stove. I’ll bet there are huge differences in the results between rocket and TLD type stoves - as there is almost nothing todo with the latter during a test. </i></b><i class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yep, so you just said very well yourself why a WBT is not reliable. So much depends on the cook, and virtually every test is different, because testing conditions fluctuate so much. So comparing WBT results are meaningless. Even for one model tested in the same lab.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">The “who advocated” have overwhelmingly approved it - and are happy with the “state of affairs”.<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">They have never reviewed it. Have they really approved it? They just let it spread. And now they are happy, or let’s say they find more convenient to remain silent and not admit their mistake.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Who says the WBT is a good protocol? No one except you.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Where do I go to find a corroboration of your version of this (sinister?) “group of people”?<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There is no sinister group of people. Back in 1982, there was, I’m sure, committed individuals who wanted and needed a testing protocol. That was I believe the VITA NGO, that was Sam Baldwin.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It’s fine, it was needed, I have no problem with that.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It is the following years that were problematic, when cookstove testers and researchers started to be warned with the serious issues of the WBT.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« « I respond because I find your position on the WBT to be devoid of value. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Why? Please explain.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL6: I gave a full set of reasons, which are following as Ia-If and IIa-IId (which labels I wish you had kept - to save me time) »<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I read your reasons, and they haven’t convinced me at all. You have completely occulted the questions I asked you.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There are several issues, you are not able to say they don’t exist.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You cannot deny the issues, you cannot answer my questions, so you just don’t avoid speaking about them, you talk about something else instead.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Answer each one of my questions and prove with undeniable evidence that the WBT is a reliable protocol. Then my position on the WBT will have become devoid of value.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">You underestimate the group you are maligning<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Who reviewed the WBT Ron? Where are the peer-reviewed publications?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Care to give any names for this group that has never studied the WBT?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The EPA, the GACC, the Aprovecho Research Center, the D-Lab, Winrock. Probably others.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Strong warnings were emitted, proofs about the WBT issues piled, but they never put it into question.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The food was poisoned, yet they chose no to look at them and keep serving them. They never asked or worked on a review of the WBT, nor on a mere study of the WBT.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">That was their jobs, they are paid for that, they chose not to do it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL8(a): Many dozens of experts have approved it over the last several years in the ISO process. Where have you received your version of the voting? We are talking here of I believe 25 countries.</b><br class=""><b class="">Who? When? Give names, give me documents.<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron, I hope, I really hope you are not talking about the Lima consensus, and the signing of the IWA, because I was at the latter, and we all agree it was forced-fed to us.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">We were pressed during the whole workshop to adopt a text, even imperfect, so we could correct it later on. We were pressed to sign, because it was said it was be the only way forward.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">We never ever wrote the sentence « the WBT is not the only valid protocol ».<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Don’t try to dishonestly take that as a proof that dozens of « « experts » » have reviewed the WBT, approved it, and still approve it. Because it is a misrepresentation of the truth Ron, it is a big lie.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Where is the evidence that the WBT is so bad?<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You must be kidding.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I showed you the evidence so many times Ron, but you refuse to see it and brush it off every time. That is intellectual dishonesty.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">« Some of WBT critical issues remain unsolved. In particular, the main weakness of the WBT concerns its real-life relevance. […] Criticism about WBT concerns also the repeatability of the protocol, with a number of researchers claiming that it would need to be reviewed in terms of accuracy. […] As a matter of fact, uncertainties related to temperature reading and vaporisation in the boiling region lead to high variability between test replicates.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A lot of debate has been made around formulation of metrics, primarily on thermal efficiency, which is often interpreted as the most immediate and distinctive stove performance parameter. Studies from Bailis et al. highlighted how relying on WBT thermal efficiency outputs, regardless of the relative importance of high and low power cooking tasks<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">among the target population, can lead to misleading interpretations. Furthermore, Zhang et al. and Jetter et al. questioned the scientific meaningfulness of thermal efficiency at simmering. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Finally, some unsolved issues concerning statistical significance of data are worth mentioning. WBT 4.2.3 includes “Statistic Lessons for Performance Testing”. The appendix specifies that the minimum number of test replicates for each model of stove should be three, […] Wang et al. investigated this topic using a simplified version of the WBT 3.0 and demonstrated that more than 5 replicates are likely to be required to avoid impractically large 95% confidence intervals and that even more replicates may be required to demonstrate a statistically significant difference in performance between two or more stoves. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Lombardi F., Riva F., Bonamini G., Barbieri J., Colombo E., Laboratory protocols for testing of Improved Cooking Stoves (ICSs): A review of state-of-the-art and further developments, 06/02/2017<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096195341730065X</a> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Lombardi F., Riva F., Colombo E., Guidelines for reporting and analysing laboratory test results for biomass cooking stoves, 01/2017<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_an" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312849490_Guidelines_for_reporting_an</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>d_analysing_laboratory_test_results_for_biomass_cooking_stoves<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Riva F., Lombardi F., Pavarini C., Colombo E., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves, 09/07/2016<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_</a>of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three__Stone_fire_cookstoves<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Bailis R., Berrueta V., Chengappa C., Dutta K., Edwards R., Masera O., Performance testing for monitoring improved biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70., 2007 <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>=pdf<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Pendelton Taylor R., The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol, 2009<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">L’Orange C., DeFoort M., Willson B., Influence of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and development of an improved testing protocol, 2009<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testingparameters.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testingparameters.pdf</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Gorrity M., Trujillo G., Quality assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT, 2013<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%252" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%2</a>0Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%2 0Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ding H., Liu J., Zhang Y., Dong R., Pang C., Key factors of thermal efficiency test protocols, 2013<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&ty" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&ty</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>pe=pdf<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Zhang Y., Pemberton-Pigott C., Zhang Z., Ding H., Zhou Y., Dong R., Key differences of performance test protocols for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11., 2014<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Wang Y., Sohn MD., How many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always adequate., 2014<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-etal._final.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-etal._final.pdf</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Lloyd P., Annegarn H., Pemberton-Pigott C., Towards a standard for clean solidfuelled cookstoves, 2015<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_cle" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_cle</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>an_solid-fuelled_cookstoves<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 1.5pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Zhang Z., Zhang Y., Zhou Y., Riaz A., Pemberton-Pigott C., Annegarn H., Dong R., Systematic and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves, 2016<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_</a>errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What do you do of all that Ron?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Where do you get your information that researchers were so lax?<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dan Sweeney writes a complacent handbook with not one mention of the WBT issues. Same with Winrock. Aprovecho continues to deceiptfully provide « « ISO » » testing certificates based on a testing protocol that is useless.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">I continue to believe in my friends<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">That’s what it is all about. Beliefs. Faith. Not facts.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Even friends make mistakes.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You say great injustice is done to your friends who kept advocating the use of the WBT despite all the warnings.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You feel the need to be very laudable towards them. Be my guest.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I’ll tell you, I’m sure they are fine people. They probably are hardworking, nice and polite, help their neighbours, give their sit to the old ladies in the bus, and probably truly would like the world to be a better place.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It’s super.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You can decide to write pages and pages of praises to them if you want, but this is not really helping our discussion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">[RWL13(e):<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">[RWL14e:<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">No, I have zero opinion about the DE.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If it is a solid equation that is important to take into account the benefits of the TLUDs, fine, then it could also be part of another protocol.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It doesn’t change anything to how faulty the WBT is. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL15e: I hope I don’t have to repeat many more times that it IS reliable - and you have not proven the converse.</b><br class="">Yes I did prove it was unrealiable, but you weren’t listening.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">You have not proven it is reliable. At this point, we are more talking about faith than anything else.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL16(f): I’m glad to hear some of this from you. Thanks. I am referring to remarks by Crispin - and hope others can give an exact quote his in the last two weeks - on not needing a laboratory.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I did NOT refuse to read the CSI and HTP; I have read them. I do not claim to be an expert on them - but am pretty sure they heat water (I can’t keep all the acronyms straight). Please give cites for each - and I’ll report back to this list on their use of heating water (e1) and measuring char (e2). Inexplicably, there are some test procedures that seem to feel that charcoal is a made-up entity, that never needed to be measured.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">OK, maybe we are making some progress then.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yes, the other lab protocols heat water.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">No, they are not unreliable like the WBT.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">If you were a major sponsor or stove buyer, would you prefer to know Tier levels or not?<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">If you believe stoves have health impacts, would you pay attention to Tier levels? <o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yes, they are quite convenient.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If they mean nothing, I certainly wouldn’t want to hear about them.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">How are you going to get repeatability on pollutant release without a WBT?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">With the CSI protocol, for example.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">[RWL:(19c): I’ll continue my practice of not naming such. But they tend to talk about the beauty of coal-fired stoves. </span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The “ acts” come from what they say on this list and off-line conversations over about 10 years. I suggest looking at who refers us to the “Watt’s Up With That” site (the site given most credit in denier circles)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A denier might be wrong on climate, but right on something else.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If Crispin tells you something about cookstoves, will you always say he is wrong, because he is a denier?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin is not always right, he also makes mistakes.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Has he not been right quite a number of times in this list, on various subjects?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Don’t judge the message by how the messenger look. Analyse and countradict the facts only.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL20 (d): TLUD stoves have had only a very limited testing period where the char was placed in soil. Dr. Winter greatly surprise me last week when he told us how much the soil improvement spect of his stove has influenced consumer reaction. Users were making money while cooking.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">If there were no Tier system giving (appropriate and accurate) value to char-making, then those stoves and users would not receive the credit they deserve (and the world needs) for carbon removal.<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Would Julien Winter have developed his stove without Tiers or the WBT, but with a more reliable testing protocol? Maybe, maybe not? I’d love to hear his take on that.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">I specifically asked the main author whether he concerns about the WBT itself and he said no.<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Who was it?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">I also believe that everyone has and should have emotions. <o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yes, but they shouldn’t cloud one’s judgement.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I think they cloud yours.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">I go back to whether you would say the same if we were arguing about the earth’s sphericity?<o:p class=""></o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I say the Earth is spheric because there are studies and empirical evidences it is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I don’t say Earth is spheric because everyone say so.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You don’t say the WBT is a reliable protocol because there are studies and proofs it is. It was never reviewed. You have no study Ron, which will conclude: « after careful reviewing of the WBT, its metrics and calculations, we can now say with very strong confidence that the testing protocol can reliably predict stove performance. »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You say it is reliable because everyone used it, and many still use it. Note that no one affirms now the WBT is reliable. But everyone used and use it out of habit or because it is convenient or because the GACC and the TC-285 didn’t tell them they could<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you see the difference?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron, what you do is a logical fallacy, this is something that you keep doing, it is called Appeal to the People.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#AppealtothePeople" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#AppealtothePeople</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Or Ad Numerum, Appeal to the Gallery, Appeal to the Masses, Argument from Popularity, Argumentum ad Populum, Common Practice, Mob Appeal, Past Practice, Peer Pressure, and Traditional Wisdom<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Maybe the majority is right regarding climate change, the Earth sphericity.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Maybe the majority using the WBT was wrong.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Anyway, I’m gonna do my own appeal to the people, because this is the only kind of argument that you hear. As I said before: there is now a majority of people who think it is not reliable and we should stop using it rather than people who think it is reliable and we should keep using it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Remember Ron, before the Earth was considered spheric, maybe there was a majority of people saying it was flat.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Would you have shouted with them it was flat, if you lived at that time?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But there are questions whether this debate of flat vs spheric really existed.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What there was, was a majority of people believing the Sun was rotating around the Earth. Copernic was alone to think, yet he was right.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Would you have said like everyone else Ron, that the Sun was rotating around the Earth?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There’s no merit in sheepish behaviour. It has rarely been synonym of scientific progress.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Now the only important question remains: is there a serious problem with the WBT and should we stop using it?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The answer will be respectively no and yes, when we will have responded to these questions Ron, and I am counting on you:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you contest the issues about the real-life relevance of the WBT? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What do you think about the WBT concerns on the repeatability of the protocol, with a number of researchers claiming that it would need to be reviewed in terms of accuracy? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you contest there are uncertainties related to temperature reading and vaporisation in the boiling region that lead to high variability between test replicates? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What do you think about the formulation of metrics, primarily on thermal efficiency ? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you contest that relying on WBT thermal efficiency outputs, regardless of the relative importance of high and low power cooking tasks among the target population, can lead to misleading interpretations? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Don’t you question the scientific meaningfulness of thermal efficiency at simmering? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you contest there are unsolved issues concerning statistical significance of data ? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Do you contest the demonstration that more than 5 replicates are likely to be required to avoid impractically large 95% confidence intervals and that even more replicates may be required to demonstrate a statistically significant difference in performance between two or more stoves? Why?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">And again, my last question:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Who reviewed the WBT Ron? Where are the peer-reviewed publications who have demonstrated the WBT is a reliable testing protocol?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">Xavier<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mardi 12 décembre 2017 06:43<br class=""><b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Xavier Brandao<br class=""><b class="">Cc :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; Nikhil Desai; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Paul Anderson; Julien Winter<br class=""><b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China and cookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Hi all - see inserts below:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Dec 11, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Ron,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You have gone pretty far in the past with fallacious reasoning, but this email takes the cake. We are now in uncharted territory.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Basically, this is your whole argumentation here:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">"I say they are valid because they are so widely used"</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Ron, please re-read 7 times this sentence out loud just to measure how ridiculous it is.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I'll tell you other things people widely do:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely eat McDonalds</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believe in sorcery and spirits</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believe in different kind of gods</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">People widely believed the sun was rotating around the Earth</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So many people can’t be wrong, ain't it?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL1: Sorry. I stand by my statement. I meant in the context of arguing about whether the earth is flat or round. More in closing.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How are people supposed to know how the WBT works?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL2: I’m trying to hurry this, so I hope others will see if there are others better than found in my google search “<i class="">water boiling test EPA stoves”</i></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How are they supposed to know that it is not reliable?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL3: They’ll know when someone writes a paper on that topic in a peer-reviewed technical journal. I know of no article (hope there is one) on why testing labs get different results than in the field. But a big part has to be how good the testing labs are. I doubt there are many cases when the testing lab gives the lower efficiency. When I have watched lab testing, the dedicated tester NEVER left the front of the stove. I’ll bet there are huge differences in the results between rocket and TLD type stoves - as there is almost nothing todo with the latter during a test. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Those who advocate(d) for the WBT while aware of the issues are responsible of this state of affairs.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL4: The “who advocated” have overwhelmingly approved it - and are happy with the “state of affairs”.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I'll tell you what happened. A group of people invented the WBT. There was nothing at the time, some protocol had to be created and used. It's perfectly fine. Then more people started to use it. Without reviewing it. Testing reports started to pile. At some point, a few studies started to be published pointing at some serious flaws in the WBT. No one bothered about that, the WBT continued to be used, reports kept piling. Then more studies, on other issues, were published. Still no one was taking action. Sunk cost. The further you go, the more difficult it is to go back. The WBT has never been reviewed, except by the studies I was mentioning, and they all say there are serious problems with it.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL5: I gave a reference a few months ago to Dr. Bond that was about 100 years old using the WBT - with the “DE”. Where do I go to find a corroboration of your version of this (sinister?) “group of people”?</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I respond because I find your position on the WBT to be devoid of value. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Why? Please explain.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL6: I gave a full set of reasons, which are following as Ia-If and IIa-IId (which labels I wish you had kept - to save me time)</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« There are hundreds of articles using the WBT, with no issue of its validity. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Of course, they have never studied the WBT, never reviewed it!</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL7(a): You underestimate the group you are maligning. Care to give any names for this group that has never studied the WBT?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">They have been told to use the WBT, so they tested, and they reported. The WBT was supposed to have had the state-of-the-art research and updates, why would they not use it?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL8(a): Many dozens of experts have approved it over the last several years in the ISO process. Where have you received your version of the voting? We are talking here of I believe 25 countries.</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I know of no article in a peer-reviewed technical journal that gives a rationale for WBT or DE’s discontinuation. The topic seems unique to this list »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">If something is not in a peer-reviewed technical journal, it doesn’t exist?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL9(b): No it can exist - just not to be believed whole cloth. Where is the evidence that the WBT is so bad?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">There is a serious rationale explaining the problems and why the WBT is broken. The peer-reviewed articles explain why it is not reliable.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL10(b): It may exist, but you haven’t told where to find these article are on unreliability..</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">There is one little more step to take, and this step, researchers are not willing to take it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL11(b): I claim they have been taken - and we will see it when the WGII report is released. Where do you get your information that researchers were so lax?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Because it is not their job, or so they think. Scientists usually think their role is to state facts. From facts, conclusions and actions can be taken.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This step is left to political actors, NGOs like Winrock, international organizations like GACC, implementers, or activists.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL12(b): I continue to believe in my friends - AND because I have seen nothing in print to deny what they tell me. I know a lot of scientists and none fit your description; they do a lot more than “state facts”.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">NOTE: My items c and d are missing. They are (important-to-me) references to the ISO process - which you are saying is wrong. You need these to understand my point (e), coming up.<br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I say misinformed because both Professor Phillip Lloyd and Crispin showed a few months ago they did not know how to use the DE, (Dr. Lloyd pulled an arbitrary number out of the air in his use of the equation). »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How so? How should the DE be used then?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL13(e): Just as it has been proposed for about a century in hundreds of papers: e3=e1/(1-e2). A VERY solid equation where every term is understood - including the negative sign. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I have not had time to work up a proof using a triangular plot - the three corners are A= e1 = stove energy; B=e2 = charcoal energy; C= inefficiency. The sum of A+B+C anywhere in the interior of the triangle is unity. The input energy can ONLY go these three ways. I’m trying to get time to show where the DE shows up on this chart. You can’t do this on normal x-y plots. I hope someone will take this hint and beat me to it.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">The DE tells one how to move from the middle of the triangle to the edge where B = e2 = 0.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I challenge you and anyone on the list to give any other formula that fairly gives credit to a co-product that can have value (in some cases) large than the cooking value. In the case of a few percentage of char, it is the ONLY way to give a valid (larger) value for e1.<br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You talk a lot about the Denominator Equation, but to me, it is another matter. I don’t have an opinion about it, and I haven’t seen convincing facts from you who put into question what Tami and Crispin said.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL14e: I know you talk to Crispin who has argued strongly against the DE, but I doubt Dr. Bond is in agreement. The “convincing facts” are in the triangle diagram - plus common sense and the agreement of the vast majority of those who have fought to keep the DE in place. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">It does seem to me that you have a strong opinion on it.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You can continue the conversation about the DE with them, but whether the DE is valid or not has no impact on all the other questions about the unreliability of the WBT.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">With or without the DE, the WBT is unreliable.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL15e: I hope I don’t have to repeat many more times that it IS reliable - and you have not proven the converse.</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It is argued (by those especially who don’t have one) that stove testing laboratories (the main users of the WBT) are unnecessary. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Who said that? Certainly not me nor the proponents of alternative testing. Laboratory testing is useful, and laboratories are useful. The WBT is not. CSI and HTP are laboratory protocols. You refused to read these protocols.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL16(f): I’m glad to hear some of this from you. Thanks. I am referring to remarks by Crispin - and hope others can give an exact quote his in the last two weeks - on not needing a laboratory.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I did NOT refuse to read the CSI and HTP; I have read them. I do not claim to be an expert on them - but am pretty sure they heat water (I can’t keep all the acronyms straight). Please give cites for each - and I’ll report back to this list on their use of heating water (e1) and measuring char (e2). Inexplicably, there are some test procedures that seem to feel that charcoal is a made-up entity, that never needed to be measured.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Note to others: My point (g) is also missing - on the DE - where I said what I just repeated.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The following are my four points on the Tier system.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It is true that I argue for the WBT because char-making stoves turn out well using the DE. Exceedingly well. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Not sure this in a paper would pass the peer-reviewing …</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL17(a): Me either. I am here telling everyone where I am coming from - that Tiers are important to me (And thankfully they have NOT been dropped). Without the Tier system, I am sure there would be much less progress. (Thinking here of a message tonight from Kirk Harris.)</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">If you were a major sponsor or stove buyer, would you prefer to know Tier levels or not?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">If you believe stoves have health impacts, would you pay attention to Tier levels? How are you going to get repeatability on pollutant release without a WBT?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« It seems that those who argue against the WBT and DE are associated with stoves that don’t do as well. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Who then? Give names. Stop just making allegations.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL18(b): I ask anyone who is a supporter of TLUDs whether they also oppose Tiers. We all know that winners rarely critique the rules. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I chose not to embarrass anyone specific. Do you really think I made a mistake there?</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« I do so now for climate reasons (earlier for forest preservation, health, time-saving and money-making reasons). My experience on this list is that a large majority of those who put down the WBT and the DE have zero concern about the climate impacts of inefficient and polluting stoves (and especially charcoal-using stoves). Such beliefs lack appreciation of climate science; those persons must also have other motives - probably money related. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Please say who are those persons and what are those other motives? Do you have facts corroborating that?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">[RWL:(19c): I’ll continue my practice of not naming such. But they tend to talk about the beauty of coal-fired stoves. </span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The “ acts” come from what they say on this list and off-line conversations over about 10 years. I suggest looking at who refers us to the “Watt’s Up With That” site (the site given most credit in denier circles)</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></span></b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">« This list has finally had this week a TLUD story from Bangladesh that fully justifies use of the WBT and DE. »</span></i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">How? Can you explain?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL20 (d): TLUD stoves have had only a very limited testing period where the char was placed in soil. Dr. Winter greatly surprise me last week when he told us how much the soil improvement spect of his stove has influenced consumer reaction. Users were making money while cooking.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">If there were no Tier system giving (appropriate and accurate) value to char-making, then those stoves and users would not receive the credit they deserve (and the world needs) for carbon removal.<br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I’ll tell you something Ron, just to make things very clear:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I think the TLUD technology is by far the most exciting and promising stove technology right now, and that includes the char-making stoves</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-left: 36pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I think that anthropogenic climate change is real, and that it is one of the main threats for the humanity and other living species on this planet</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL20: Thanks for the clarification. I had not been thinking of you in the WUWT camp</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">All that is beyond the point.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL21: Nope - it is my main point.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">We are now talking about the WBT, and there are scientific facts showing it is unreliable, and so far you haven’t been able to reply to my questions, and to prove these facts wrong.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL22: If you provided any scientific facts above I failed to see them. The main peer-reviewed paper claiming anything like this was saying there need to be more replications. I specifically asked the main author whether he concerns about the WBT itself and he said no. I asked for specifics and you have provided none.</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Ron, you are supposed to be a scientist, to have a critical mind, to judge on facts only, and not on trends nor emotions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL23: Yup my point IIa was supposed to tell everyone that this is a topic on which I get emotional. That does not mean that I should or did or would want to ignore facts. I think I have provide plenty above. You have not. I’m waiting. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I also believe that everyone has and should have emotions. It wouldn’t surprise me that some of the best papers come from those with emotional attachments.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I should also admit here that I get emotional when people like Nikhil give no credit to anything that EPA (mostly the EPA stove group can be called scientists). He is not acting in a scientific manner at all (close to zero reference to peer-reviewed literature). Same for his critique of GACC - totally unwarranted (and emotional and un-scientific). </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Please let’s discuss facts.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This sentence: « they are valid because they are so widely used » would have founding fathers and mothers of science throw themselves out the window, if they could.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL: I go back to whether you would say the same if we were arguing about the earth’s sphericity? You are arguing against a position which has major support in the stove improvement community. I’m glad you are not a denier, but your argument against terms like “97%” are exactly those of deniers. I repeat: show me a cogent article in print on why the WBT (and the DE) should not be accepted without reservation.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">Ron</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class="">(re-read, but I have to stop now, given the hour.)</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">Xavier</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><table style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(211, 212, 222);" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;" class=""><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" class=""></a></td><td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: rgb(65, 66, 78); font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;" class="">Garanti sans virus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(68, 83, 234); text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>