<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Nikhil Few notes below.<div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 18, 2017, at 10:25 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra">Ron: <br class=""><br class="">I have now read the paper and I am baffled at your claim that "it is full of health rationales (for India)."<br class=""><br class="">It makes no findings about health, just about emission factors in a small part of India. <br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Maybe I’m wrong, but I believe you can’t do anything related to health without knowing emission factors. </b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra">
<br class="">To the authors' credit, they specify what fuels they have evaluated, provide their chemical analysis. And they have looked at actual cooking, not water boiling. <br class=""><br class="">I wonder if they had looked at GACC-commissioned study in India of district-level emissions. <br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The cite for which is?</b></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">I am astounded at your claim "I doubt one can use this paper to downgrade the WBT." when the authors clearly conclude that " standardized burn protocols (typically
a water boiling test) may not replicate cookstove performance
in the field.”</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: You are “astounded” because lab staff can produce lower emission results than in the field? Your preference would be for them to artificially get big emission numbers? I think there is general agreement that test lab staff try very hard to not let a fire go out - and real cooks have other, conflicting responsibilities.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So you doubt my doubt - please show a clear line between this paper’ s (non-WBT) numbers and what might result in a lab WBT test of a chula? </b></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra">Only says "may". Because we really don't know much about emission rates across real stoves and fuels. It’s mostly a cooked up evidence. <br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: You believe this paper is not looking at “real stoves and fuels”? Their study looked to me pretty real. How would you have improved it?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron </b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Nikhil and list:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>The (non-fee) paper is at <a href="https://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/17/13721/2017/acp-17-13721-2017.pdf" target="_blank" class="">https://www.atmos-chem-<wbr class="">phys.net/17/13721/2017/acp-17-<wbr class="">13721-2017.pdf</a> </div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>The supplement at <a href="https://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/17/13721/2017/acp-17-13721-2017-supplement.pdf" target="_blank" class="">https://www.atmos-chem-phys.<wbr class="">net/17/13721/2017/acp-17-<wbr class="">13721-2017-supplement.pdf</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Looks like a credible paper - but not one I am going to read carefully as it is only related to traditional chulas. Seems to have a somewhat different means of monitoring the pollutants - in the field. I doubt one can use this paper to downgrade the WBT.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I am going to guess you won’t like the paper as it is full of health rationales (for India).</div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Re repeatability, I am working up more on fuel shape, which is a main feature of the L’Orange et al paper. Fuel shape also not covered in the TLUD paper I noted with the 10% efficiency that Crispin has since commented on.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Twenty years ago we had some fine comments from a Professor at Washington University - who (I vaguely recall) was interested in some seeds that performed well for cooking because of their high oil content - that had no other use, because they were poisonous.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail-h5"><div class="">On Dec 16, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail-h5"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><table style="font-family:Arial;border-collapse:collapse;border-left:1px solid rgb(228,228,228);border-right:1px solid rgb(228,228,228)" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="font-family:Arial;padding:18px 0px 12px;vertical-align:top" class=""><span style="padding:0px 6px 0px 0px" class=""><a href="http://indiacsr.in/on-the-ground-research-reveals-true-impact-of-cook-stove-emissions-in-india/" target="_blank" class="">On-the-ground research reveals true impact of <b class="">cook-stove</b> emissions in India</a>. India CSR Network blog, 15 December 2017</span></td></tr></tbody></table><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923gmail_signature"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class=""> </font> "We conducted real-life cookstove tests and burned a wide variety of biofuels, cooked different meals in a number of varying ventilation situations, then <u class="">recorded the resulting emission levels</u> using high-tech particle measurement devices.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923gmail_signature"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923gmail_signature"><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">Once the data was crunched back in St. Louis, the results were startling: In some cases, <u class="">more than twice the emission levels were detected when compared to the previous lab findings</u>, revising what people thought they knew for decades about this pervasive and dangerous problem."</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_1951825311752651923gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class="">I wonder what protocols and fuels were used, and also whether they only measured emissions but also concentrations and tried to model the two. <br class=""><br class="">Or whether the alleged "previous lab findings" are comparable or this research team is just boasting. <br class=""><br class="">I hope the revisions are not as shoddy as the history. What people thought they knew was what they chose to or were instructed to believe. <br class=""><br class="">Related press release at <a href="https://source.wustl.edu/2017/08/engineers-work-fight-pollution-home-globally/" target="_blank" class="">Engineers work to fight pollution at home, globally</a>, Erika Ebsworth-Goold August 11, 2017. Haven't yet located the full paper. <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>
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