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<p><font size="+1">Dear Crispin, <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">You are not exactly building up our confidence in
convincing us to use the LHV calculations for our small stoves
by pointing out all the problems. Ha But a very good learning
tool. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">But I have a question: Say you do a WBT using
biomass having, say -10% moisture and calculated in the LHV
based on time and temperature increase and water loss etc. Could
you then just calculate the time it would take to heat water
using the same biomass but having 15% moisture? or perhaps 5%
moisture by plugin in the data? And if you were to actually use
biomass with 15 and 5 percent moisture find your calculation
were spot-on? I'm guessing not close. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">That because; take a small active burning and
task producting stove and 'place it on a platform' and plot XYZ
one centimeters apart, Every cubic cm will be changing in
temperature, gas flow and pressure every second. And every
square cm of surface area will be changing in heat holding and
temperature every second = too variable to reliably use LHV.
Unlike a commercial biomass boiler. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">If you cannot use the LHV calculations to predict
happening at a different temperature then the calculations just
create an error. I'm thinking a better way is to run tests using
the HHV and just report the moisture of the biomass used along
with the findings.</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">But I will be VERY happy to be proven wrong. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Regards</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Frank<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1"></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/18/17 9:42 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Note
to all:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
caution that when calculating the HHV using either the EPA’s
formula or, if in the Far East, the Chinese method in their
national standards, both are using a constant for fuel
moisture compensation in the HHV formula that is incorrect
(and in disagreement). This was discussed in an analysis of
several test methods in Zhang, Y et al 2014 p.7/11 and a
correction proposed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">“KEY
DIFFERENCES OF PERFORMANCE TEST PROTOCOLS FOR HOUSEHOLD
BIOMASS COOKSTOVES”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">DOI:
</span></strong><span lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://doi.org/10.1109/DUE.2014.6827753"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">10.1109/DUE.2014.6827753</a></span><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
proposed correction
</span><span lang="EN-US">concerns the constant used to adjust
the cooling of condensed water vapour from 100</span><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">˚</span><span lang="EN-US">C to normal
temperature. The EPA and Chinese methods in essence have it
that room temperature is 52 and 60.5</span><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">˚</span><span lang="EN-US">C respectively.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">For the LHV there is a
second issue: many calculated Lower Heating Values include a
value for the condensation of water vapour to liquid but
omit the cooling of the water to normal temperature. The
difference is about 60kJ. One of the most accessible tables
of biomass, HHV and LHV values is at the back of the Water
Boiling Test, versions 3.x to 4.x. All the values in the
back are based on a ‘standard deduction’ not a calculation
from the analysis of the fuel. The “standard deduction” from
the HHV is 1.32 MJ per kg. Not only is the value almost
always not correct for the condensation energy, it also
omits the 60kJ from the deduction.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This omission was noted
in Sam Baldwin’s book in 1987 but was never incorporated
into the WBT calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">++++++++++++<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">ABSTRACT<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">In this study, different ways of
testing household<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">biomass cooking stoves are compared and
analyzed.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">The differences between test methods
relate to the stove<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">operation and data analysis methods,
the fueling<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">procedure, the end point selection, the
choice of metrics<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">and others factors. The influences of
these differences<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">were analyzed by using an induction
heater. The results<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">show the use of a pot lid or not, and
the selection of the<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">end point of the test have the greatest
influence on the<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">rated performance. Consequently test
results provided<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">by laboratories using different test
methods will place<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">the same stove-plus-fuel combination on
significantly<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">different performance ‘tiers’. Also the
results show<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">some metrics in popular tests should be
reviewed. Some<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">recommendations are provided for
improving the<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif">accuracy and repeatability of test<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">+++++++<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg">
<div id="ygrp-msg">
<div id="ygrp-text">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks,
Steven. That's great.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Our experience with
domestic-scale cordwood in masonry heaters (50 lb
batches @20% moisture) is that the "boiling of
water" or latent heat loss is typically in the 13%
range, using the Condar spreadsheet HHV
calculation
<a
href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fheatkit.com%2Fdocs%2Fcondar.PDF&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d752582db6d47f6399f08d546367aa5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492122151013754&sdata=asRt6%2FrP3ifNJ%2FMqKKXwWHGyOBbjxzV4xMjitTc6Sqs%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
heatkit.com/docs/condar.PDF</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:24
AM, Law, Steven (MOECC) <<a
href="mailto:Steven.Law@ontario.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Steven.Law@ontario.ca</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
0cm;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I have finally
completed a proper study of reporting
efficiency using LHV and HHV. It was much
more complicated than I thought it would
be, and now I know why this is such a
mess!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Just remember that
HHV is always less than LHV, and anything
above 100% is WRONG and cannot possibly
conserve energy or mass and is therefore
unscientific.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">When an LHV
efficiency from Europe is 90% (which is
actually a reasonable number), the HHV
efficiency is a maximum of 84% or usually
less, depending on the moisture content of
the wood fuel and is more typically
75-80%. This is important, HHV efficiency
is extremely dependent on fuel moisture
whereas LHV is less so, but only for
non-condensing boilers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Again, this is for
non-condensing combustion devices, because
when you throw in high efficiency
condensing heat recovery all the numbers
get screwy and LHV no longer applies.
Everything has to be re-done for
condensing boilers and only HHV can be
used, I will repeat LHV cannot be used for
anything where condensation of the flue
gas occurs in the heat recovery device!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">I think I have a
proper engineering calculation procedure
mapped out to deal with all of the above
issues and I will begin to roll this out a
little bit at a time since I need to
review it again before sending anything
out. It is a scientific method that is
based on conservation of mass and energy
and I hope that this new calculation
procedure will help to solve some current
problems in the industry.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#1F497D">Best regards, Steven</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
819.647.5092<br>
<a
href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heatkit.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d752582db6d47f6399f08d546367aa5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492122151013754&sdata=gxkaGDly5HpdqTu6bxTy6HZRAO67QM8XRp%2BVftSLG4E%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.heatkit.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Frank Shields
444 Main Street Apt. 4205
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 246-0417 cell
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a></pre>
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