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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">What I described is a systematic error. It offsets results in a particular direction and under-rates the efficiency calculation saying there is more heat available that there really
is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Yes you can make a general case for thermal performance by recalculation for fuel moisture, but stoves work very differently on emissions with that change. You just change the denominator.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Dear Crispin, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">You are not exactly building up our confidence in convincing us to use the LHV calculations for our small stoves by pointing out all the problems. Ha But a very good learning tool.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">But I have a question: Say you do a WBT using biomass having, say -10% moisture and calculated in the LHV based on time and temperature increase and water loss etc. Could you then just calculate the time it would take to heat
water using the same biomass but having 15% moisture? or perhaps 5% moisture by plugin in the data? And if you were to actually use biomass with 15 and 5 percent moisture find your calculation were spot-on? I'm guessing not close.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">That because; take a small active burning and task producting stove and 'place it on a platform' and plot XYZ one centimeters apart, Every cubic cm will be changing in temperature, gas flow and pressure every second. And every
square cm of surface area will be changing in heat holding and temperature every second = too variable to reliably use LHV. Unlike a commercial biomass boiler.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">If you cannot use the LHV calculations to predict happening at a different temperature then the calculations just create an error. I'm thinking a better way is to run tests using the HHV and just report the moisture of the
biomass used along with the findings.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">But I will be VERY happy to be proven wrong. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/18/17 9:42 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Note to all:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I caution that when calculating the HHV using either the EPA’s formula or, if in the Far East, the Chinese method in their national standards, both are using a constant for fuel moisture compensation
in the HHV formula that is incorrect (and in disagreement). This was discussed in an analysis of several test methods in Zhang, Y et al 2014 p.7/11 and a correction proposed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">“KEY DIFFERENCES OF PERFORMANCE TEST PROTOCOLS FOR HOUSEHOLD BIOMASS COOKSTOVES”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">DOI:
</span></strong><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdoi.org%2F10.1109%2FDUE.2014.6827753&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07825bb3ff124337baed08d546446e72%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492182077165292&sdata=P%2BqfVUg0kA05rxmIsuoGnt%2B0DqQJepHgYnwnAgHyB8o%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">10.1109/DUE.2014.6827753</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The proposed correction
</span><span lang="EN-US">concerns the constant used to adjust the cooling of condensed water vapour from 100</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">˚</span><span lang="EN-US">C to normal temperature. The EPA and Chinese methods in
essence have it that room temperature is 52 and 60.5</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">˚</span><span lang="EN-US">C respectively.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">For the LHV there is a second issue: many calculated Lower Heating Values include a value for the condensation of water vapour to liquid but omit the cooling of the water to normal temperature. The difference is about
60kJ. One of the most accessible tables of biomass, HHV and LHV values is at the back of the Water Boiling Test, versions 3.x to 4.x. All the values in the back are based on a ‘standard deduction’ not a calculation from the analysis of the fuel. The “standard
deduction” from the HHV is 1.32 MJ per kg. Not only is the value almost always not correct for the condensation energy, it also omits the 60kJ from the deduction.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This omission was noted in Sam Baldwin’s book in 1987 but was never incorporated into the WBT calculations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">++++++++++++</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">ABSTRACT</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">In this study, different ways of testing household</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">biomass cooking stoves are compared and analyzed.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">The differences between test methods relate to the stove</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">operation and data analysis methods, the fueling</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">procedure, the end point selection, the choice of metrics</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">and others factors. The influences of these differences</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">were analyzed by using an induction heater. The results</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">show the use of a pot lid or not, and the selection of the</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">end point of the test have the greatest influence on the</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">rated performance. Consequently test results provided</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">by laboratories using different test methods will place</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">the same stove-plus-fuel combination on significantly</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">different performance ‘tiers’. Also the results show</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">some metrics in popular tests should be reviewed. Some</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">recommendations are provided for improving the</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif">accuracy and repeatability of test</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">+++++++</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks, Steven. That's great.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Our experience with domestic-scale cordwood in masonry heaters (50 lb batches @20% moisture) is that the "boiling of water" or latent heat loss is typically in the 13% range, using the Condar spreadsheet HHV calculation
<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fheatkit.com%2Fdocs%2Fcondar.PDF&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d752582db6d47f6399f08d546367aa5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492122151013754&sdata=asRt6%2FrP3ifNJ%2FMqKKXwWHGyOBbjxzV4xMjitTc6Sqs%3D&reserved=0">
heatkit.com/docs/condar.PDF</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Law, Steven (MOECC) <<a href="mailto:Steven.Law@ontario.ca" target="_blank">Steven.Law@ontario.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hello all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I have finally completed a proper study of reporting efficiency using LHV and HHV. It was much more complicated than I thought it would be, and now I
know why this is such a mess!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Just remember that HHV is always less than LHV, and anything above 100% is WRONG and cannot possibly conserve energy or mass and is therefore unscientific.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">When an LHV efficiency from Europe is 90% (which is actually a reasonable number), the HHV efficiency is a maximum of 84% or usually less, depending
on the moisture content of the wood fuel and is more typically 75-80%. This is important, HHV efficiency is extremely dependent on fuel moisture whereas LHV is less so, but only for non-condensing boilers.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Again, this is for non-condensing combustion devices, because when you throw in high efficiency condensing heat recovery all the numbers get screwy and
LHV no longer applies. Everything has to be re-done for condensing boilers and only HHV can be used, I will repeat LHV cannot be used for anything where condensation of the flue gas occurs in the heat recovery device!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">I think I have a proper engineering calculation procedure mapped out to deal with all of the above issues and I will begin to roll this out a little
bit at a time since I need to review it again before sending anything out. It is a scientific method that is based on conservation of mass and energy and I hope that this new calculation procedure will help to solve some current problems in the industry.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best regards, Steven</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
819.647.5092<br>
<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heatkit.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9d752582db6d47f6399f08d546367aa5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492122151013754&sdata=gxkaGDly5HpdqTu6bxTy6HZRAO67QM8XRp%2BVftSLG4E%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">www.heatkit.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:white">__._,_.___</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fstoves_lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07825bb3ff124337baed08d546446e72%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492182077165292&sdata=MuONOf6PWiydPanmqXB2qLmDUgPGobv3so%2FkvGKTM%2FQ%3D&reserved=0">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstoves.bioenergylists.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C07825bb3ff124337baed08d546446e72%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492182077165292&sdata=uvH9%2F0M7c4VLbeMBa%2BRQbIErrQbIpNRwBm2%2BS2t1DH0%3D&reserved=0">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>444 Main Street Apt. 4205<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Watsonville, CA 95076<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>(831) 246-0417 cell<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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