<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">List: Crispin and Kirk (authors of the several preceding notes in this thread - with a non-pertinent title)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My impression is that Crispin didn’t answer Kirk’s question. I interpret Kirk to be asking whether Crispin and others who disparage the WBT also disparage the measurements of CO2, CO and particulates that accompany the efficiency calculations. I think Kirk is asking whether Crispin (and Xavier, probably Nikhil and Phillip) think we should ignore all the additional, reported non-efficiency data that regularly comes out of the WBT. These seem very important to many funders, so it seems to me (and Kirk and many on this list) that we must have a means of getting that non-efficiency data. If not using something very much like the present WBT (similar duration, similar pot sizes, water quantity, etc), what do the opponents recommend?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Other notes below</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 19, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Dear Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">If I understand you, you want to know if I object to the WBT calling for the use of ‘sensors’ – is that correct?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">All testing uses sensors. Why would someone object to using sensors? How else would measurements be made?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: And which parameters now in the WBT are to be kept or removed? We need agreement on more than needing and using sensors.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">The WBT has a fixed testing sequence of power and control. It does not represent cooking anywhere in particular, though it says in the documentation that it is a proxy for cooking. “Rating stoves” using a universal test sequence of operations is nearly pointless because it cannot predict what will happen if someone uses it to cook. If the test doesn’t represent use, how can the result tell us something that will inform policy? You wouldn’t buy a child safety seat that was tested that way.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: Another major question: </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> Is there value in comparing different stoves in both the lab and in the field? </b></div><div><b class=""> Or, </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Should we only trust answers that come from the field?</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Measurements can be made using any instruments you like. Xavier tried using one instrument and didn’t like it. He is a customer and was dissatisfied. I am not.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">You asked if he objected to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">making measurements</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is that correct? If so I find the question silly, to be frank. We all use instruments to measure performance. The instruments required to make measurements mentioned in the WBT are not part of the testing protocol, they are part of the test apparatus used when conduction the procedures listed in the protocol. Test protocols should list the measurement range and precision required to get a valid result within a confidence interval. The WBT does not contain any such description that would produce results within the range required by the IWA. Writers of Standards include such a list of needed equipment so as to provide the quality of result needed. This has nothing to do with the equipment Xavier bought. It has to do with the test method and the claims which an be made for its results. Such things are normally decided at the beginning during a conceptual analysis of the purpose of the experiment and the quality of results needed.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: Sorry you feel Kirk asked a “silly” question. This is my attempt to ask the same, hopefully not “silly” question, which is: </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> Should we be measuring, in a lab setting (with sensors more sophisticated than a clock, thermometer, and scale), CO2, CO, and particulates? </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""> (and asking Kirk if this phrasing is accurate enough)</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Processing the recorded measurements uses a method included in the WBT document. The method is defective on many counts – it contains approximately 75 systematic errors at present. Some <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>are major errors and can be (but might not be) misleading.</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: Where do I go to see that list of 75? I’m especially interested in one that “<i class="">can be (but might not be) misleading</i>”</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">I object to two things: the claim that a WBT can be used as a pre-screening method before field trials are attempted. That is nonsense. A stove designed to burn a certain fuel and cook certain meals might perform very badly on a standard WBT and very well in the field. Numerous investigations support my POV. Claims that stoves ‘generally perform better in the field if they perform better in the lab using a WBT’. So what? We can’t use ‘might generally perform better’ as a rating.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: We would all learn a great deal about this “<i class="">badly..standard WBT</i>” vs “<i class="">well in the field</i>”. Anyone ever seen this non-“<i class="">nonsense”</i>?</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">The second thing I object to is conceptual errors embedded in the test, and the arithmetic errors, some of which are fundamental to the claims made for the results. Obviously the claims for the ‘specific fuel consumption’ are incorrect if it doesn’t report the fuel consumed.</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: I need help on “<i class="">doesn’t report on the fuel consumed</i>” That has been a key part of every test lab report I have ever looked at. This seems a good time for anyone to tell us about “arithmetic errors”.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">I look forward to the day when you have your stove tested using a good test method that is well grounded in science and engineering so we know what its performance actually is. It sounds really good.”.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL7: I guess it is obvious we have different opinions on whether the two labs that tested (and agreed on) several of Kirk’s (progressively improved) TLUD designs were each using “<i class="">a good method</i>”. Measuring the stove by Crispin’s (I think still) preferred method [of treating char as (not worth measuring) waste] doesn’t seem to me to be moving towards "<i class="">a good</i>” method.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><span class=""><b class="">ps: Still hoping for someone to comment on whether last week’s AGU report on health impacts of smoke from forest fires has any relation to stove health impacts (CO and particulates being apparently quite similar). To me, this is a strong endorsement of WHO reports on health that at least some stove buyers want.</b><br class=""></span><span class=""><br class=""></span><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Regards<br class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kirk H.<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>20-Dec-17 02:18<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Crispin,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">The fact that you did not mention sensors is the problem because sensors were in my question. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Since your response did not answer my question but rather pushed your anti-WBT agenda, I had no choice but to guess. I did not impute disagreements, I could only guess that your disagreement extended to the sensors and filters. If they did not then you should have made that clear in your response instead of pushing your agenda. I quite clearly asked if the CCT is included in the disagreement. No answer in your response. I could only make guesses, because your response was so far off from answering my question. All I wanted was for my question to be answered.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Aside from this, thank you for answering my question in this last contribution. No you do not include the sensors and filters in the disagreement. I can now feel comfortable that the CO, CO2, and particulate results are not in dispute.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">When will these other better tests be available for me to use?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C95dc052b6f294156f64c08d5471e164a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636493116906531727&sdata=FDOp6JcxcaiL9%2BB%2F5Vi7MO48xO9gNr1m4sho09OpP%2BU%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Mail</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows 10<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</a><br class=""><b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, December 19, 2017 4:39 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I made no mention at all of sensors or quality of equipment, which is not specified in the WBT. I think it is not helpful for you or Ron or anyone to impute disagreements where there are none. The WBT is a test protocol that includes a test method and a set of calculations. What it your point is saying ‘it includes the CCT’ because it doesn’t exclude it? Seriously: what is your theory of change? Shooting messengers, even hosts of them, does not change the message.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Conceptually there is nothing wrote with heating or boiling water. If you want really accurate results, heat water, don’t boil it – a point repeatedly emphasized by Prof Lloyd. There is a paper called “From Water Boiling Test to Water Heating Test” which explores this, (From WBT to WHT, it is called).<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If you want even more accurate assessments of your product, use formulas that are derived from first principles. That exercise has been done very by the SeTAR Centre and is why the HPT was created – as a way of avoiding all the historical errors that have accumulated in the WBT. I mentioned the LVH error in the list of woods at the back of the spreadsheet. That error was identified in 1987 by Sam Baldwin, someone highly praised in certain circles. Yet after 30 year (!) it has still not been corrected by Shell, Berkeley, Aprovecho, Tami Bond and ETHOS nor the EPA and GACC.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">How long should we wait for something as simple as a an error in the LHV from HHV calculation to be implemented? Do you agree 30 years is a bit excessive (and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">still</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>not corrected) is a bit excessive?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Why should anyone take seriously the system of informal management of its “main messenger” that cannot gets its technical house in order? I don’t. Neither does Xavier. Not Jiddu. Nor the Indian government nor the Chinese government nor many others.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kirk H.<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>19-Dec-17 12:25<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Thank you for your response. My question was if the disagreement was with all parts of the test or just the water boiling part. I guess your answer means that the disagreement is with all parts of the test including the CO sensors, CO2 sensors, particulate sensors and the weighing of the filters, as well as the water boiling portion. When you say WBT, you mean all of this, not just the water boiling in the pot. I also assume that the CCT is included in this, since your response did not exclude it. But since I have nothing else available for my use I will continue as is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I was using my stove to compare only because it and the fuel were constant between Aprovecho and LBNL and the results were similar, not to flaunt it as a clean stove. Sorry about the misunderstanding. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C508e7c300ead46b2ea9808d546a9a7da%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492616834369342&sdata=NaGH3iFpwknHhuDte1RIdz%2FvvVkaWq9mKs1HvZl20jo%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Mail</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows 10<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</a><br class=""><b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, December 18, 2017 7:24 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Stoves</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">No thinks your stove isn't 'clean and efficient'. In truth we don't know what the performance is because none of the WBT spreadsheets for it are not available from Aprovecho (so you said when I asked) and LBNL not only doesn't share the spreadsheet behind the performance claims, they do their own evaluation using their own method (I wrote to them and asked specifically about your stove).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In the real world. This is simply unacceptable. We do not accept anyone's performance rating for which we do know know the method and calculations. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Similarly, the calculations done in the EPA are not entirely in accordance with the WBT (I asked Jim Jetter for a copy of any stove test to see). <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The ratings provided by LBNL and EPA Lab may reflect the actual performance on the WBT tasks quite well. No one knows for sure. As I have no need for performance not reflecting use, I don't use the cooking cycle or the calculations OD the WBT. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I do know that both those labs report using IWA metrics without any caution that the 'fuel consumption' per litre boiled or simmered is of questionable value, or no value at all. The consumer of the information is left with the impression that the numbers are meaningful which they may not be. To me that is at least, deceptive because both labs ae aware of the controversy and implications for the product ratings. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">It is telling that students at Berkeley are still using the WBT3.0 in view of the fact none of its descendants have been peer reviewed. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The WBT should be eschewed and it's outputs ignored. It is unreliable in the strictest sense of the word. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Regards <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Crispin <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Xavier,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I am surprised to read that you don’t know whether you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the water boiling portion of the test. I did not specify Aprovecho’s equipment in my question. I tested the same stove on both Aprovecho’s and Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s equipment, and the tests both showed a very clean stove. Does the disagreement include Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water portion of the test? What exactly do those who disagree with the WBT, disagree with, just the water boiling portion of the test or the overall test? Is the Controlled Cooking portion of the test also included in this disagreement?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=IssiZ2Ne5BQ6ELPc%2BP%2Fu0AsX3R%2BUFdeN%2F1cSK1Nbqoo%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Mail</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows 10<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Xavier Brandao</a><br class=""><b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, December 18, 2017 3:29 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Kirk,</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">“Do you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water?“</span></i><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I don’t really know about that. I believe Crispin said the measurements from Aprovecho equipment was unreliable.</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Other than that, the PEMS was breaking down all the time at Prakti, and I believe there are other cases where it happened.</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">Best,</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Xavier</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">De la part de</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk H.<br class=""><b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>samedi 16 décembre 2017 00:55<br class=""><b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br class=""><b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China andcookstoves]</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="FR" class=""> </span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I have a question.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">When I test a stove I see sensors, computer graphs and filters along with the pot of water. Do you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water? The water boiling portion of the overall test appears to attract your attention. How much of the overall test do you disagree with? What do you mean when you disagree with the WBT, are you including the sensors, computer graphs and filters?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=IssiZ2Ne5BQ6ELPc%2BP%2Fu0AsX3R%2BUFdeN%2F1cSK1Nbqoo%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); 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text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Stoves mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>