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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>« [RWL1: I wasn’t in this, but I like Nikhil’s question - and not surprised it wasn’t answered. »<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Actually, it was answered, and twice. See my previous email to Nikhil.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>« [RWL2: This makes no sense. I must have missed something about Gates and $30.5 Million. »</i></b><i><br></i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I was using metaphors.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The NASA one is maybe not the best, let me use another one:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A teacher is teaching his pupils that 1 + 1 = 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>He should be teaching 1 + 1 = 2, but he teaches them 1 + 1 = 3. They learn that and apply it at school, or in their homework, without any noticeable issue. All seems fine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then someone comes to see the director of the school, and says: «hey, the pupils are learning 1 + 1 = 3 instead of 2, please ask the teacher to stop. »<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then the director says: « prove me this is harmful, and then I’ll ask him to teach them 1 + 1 = 2 ».<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is basically what you and Nikhil are doing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There is no need to study the impact of using something incorrect. Something that is proven wrong and incorrect shouldn’t be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You don’t need to assess the consequences of 1 + 1 = 3. You just use 1 + 1 = 2.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You don’t need to assess the consequences of writing a word with an incorrect spelling. You use the correct spelling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is why I was, using the example of the 30 million study, to represent a massive effort done to assess the harm done by using the WBT instead of a protocol that is reliable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is pointless doing this massive effort, doing this assessment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>«Dropping the WBT is one good example of something to avoid, when the vast majority of users are expressing no concern »<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The vast majority of people eating pesticides with their food express no concern. That don’t mean they fully studied and understood how toxic the food is. They don’t know. That is not their role to verify the food is safe to eat.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>There are professionals whom it is the role. They work full-time, and get big wages to do that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>« I will be reading the nice list of articles you provided. Thanks for the list - which I don’t recall being given before. »<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is strange, because I posted it many times on and outside the List, since January 2017. You were in copy when I send the emails about the advocacy. Then I sent this list of articles to you personally during our discussions on the List, in my email of the 20/01. Then I asked you the questions from the studies in my emails of the 26/01 and the 31/08.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I even sent you personnally the study papers, in pdf attachments, in a private email to you the 20/01.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>« [RWL4: Volkswagen got clobbered; they got away with nothing.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>[RWL5: I know of no example of NASA coming up with 3 instead af 2. Yours? »</i></b><i><br></i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I was using fictional examples, metaphors, to show the fallacity of a reasoning.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i>« [RWL6: I see no reason to measure the unreliability of the WBT (when it meets my standards) - but sure there have to be standard methods. Standard deviations are already given. What would you propose.? »<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Maybe the WBT meets your standards, but it doesn’t meet the ones of most of us. The unreliability has been thoroughly documented, I was not talking about that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am talking about measuring the negative impact the use of an unreliable WBT has on stove development, dissemination, and on projects, companies, and ultimately the users.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It makes no sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That was my point. I don’t propose to measure that negative impact. A protocol is proven unreliable? Let’s not use it, and use a reliable protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Xavier<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>De la part de</b> Ronal W. Larson<br><b>Envoyé :</b> samedi 16 décembre 2017 01:21<br><b>À :</b> Xavier Brandao<br><b>Cc :</b> Nikhil Desai; Discussion of biomass<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Stoves] "Those of us who believe that the WBT is critical to stove improvement"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hi all:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>See below<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Dec 15, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dear Nikhil, Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Nikhil, this is probably the third time you are asking me that same question:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>« What are the proofs that the WBT did harm anybody? »<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>And my answer hasn’t changed, so I’ll tell you for the third time: « I have no proof, there are no proofs, because it has never been studied ».<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ask me that same question again, I’ll answer the same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL1: I wasn’t in this, but I like Nikhil’s question - and not surprised it wasn’t answered.</b><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If you have 30.5 million dollars from the Gates Foundation to do a 5-year longitudinal study, please be my guest and lead the way.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>And let’s wait for the report conclusions to contemplate if maybe we should act.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL2: This makes no sense. I must have missed something about Gates and $30.5 Million.</b><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>In the absence of that, we need to think carefully, and act carefully. But we need to act.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL3: Yup. Dropping the WBT is one good example of something to avoid, when the vast majority of users are expressing no concern (and I will be reading the nice list of articles you provided. Thanks for the list - which I don’t recall being given before.</b><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Nikhil, Ron, it’s my turn to ask you questions:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:36.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:-18.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>There’s a loophole in the emission testing system of Volkswagen. It allows cheating. But, you say we have no way to clearly know how emissions are harmful to the population. So, we shouldn’t care if the engine is clean or not, and if the test is unreliable or not, because we don’t know the effects of emissions on health anyways.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>So should we change the system or not? Should we ask Volkswagen to use a testing system that is reliable?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL4: Volkswagen got clobbered; they got away with nothing.</b><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='margin-left:36.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:-18.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The NASA realize some of its calculations basically find that 1 + 1 = 3. Those calculations are actually present in many of their research projects, for various technologies. But they have no way to know how much impact it had on the projects, because the projects are still going, there are technologies being developed, all is seemingly quite fine.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:36.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Should the mistake be corrected or not?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL5: I know of no example of NASA coming up with 3 instead af 2. Yours?</b><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I have an other question for both of you:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:36.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:-18.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>How do you measure the impact of the unreliability of the WBT? Do you have a methodology?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><b>[RWL6: I see no reason to measure the unreliability of the WBT (when it meets my standards) - but sure there have to be standard methods. Standard deviations are already given. What would you propose.?</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Ron<br><br></b><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>Xavier<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellpadding=0 style='border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt'><tr><td width=55 style='width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:13.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=46 height=29 id="Image_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.gif@01D37855.9E990CA0" alt="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=470 style='width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:12.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.5pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424E'>Garanti sans virus.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>