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Nolbert and all,<br>
<br>
I just want to thank you and the others for looking into the use of
TLUD technology for masonary heaters. Nice website for the MH
Association <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mha-net.org/">http://www.mha-net.org/</a> <br>
<br>
I would be delighted to work with you and the MHA in any ways that
incorporate either TLUD stove technology or other methods (such as
modified flame cap that is not yet being studied) that emphasize
pyrolysis and therefore also have strong interest in the resultant
charcoal. Maybe there is or will be a small group of such
enthusiasts. If so, count me in.<br>
<br>
I live in Illinois, but that puts me into the North America focus of
your group!!<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/17/2017 7:38 AM, Norbert Senf
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGYvK4fv8tZU_xYBXetRj2tLYNOVrWehELBonwGBsvzy5SNNoA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>Norbert cc Biochar list, Andrew, MHA (Masonry
Heating Association) list, and Terrence and Steven</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1.
Hello to MHA and Terrence and Steven - who I see are
in Ontario Government departments. Feel free to jump
in.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2,
I am particularly thinking of folks in Ontario
modifying MHA systems so they produce char (mostly to
go in the soil). I believe MH users could find that
fuel costs could become negative. (This idea thanks
to Andrew) The fuel piles will have to be larger or
re-fired more often - but these char-makers seem to be
cleaner.</div>
<div><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
think it pretty unlikely to get through US departments
as rapidly as OMAFRA and OMOECC, where Government
official seem to believe there is global warming.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See few comments below - and thanks for yours.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
(snip)</div>
</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><span
class="gmail-"><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span></span><b>[RWLC:
I think we are a long way from having acceptance of
a “ software simulator”.</b>
<div><b><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
would have guess that most of your MH units
are “one-off”. They can’t be tested in the field
at low enough cost?</b></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the masonry heater industry we have a precedent from
Austria. They have a proprietary calculator, that is
accepted for certifying one-off heaters. The main nuts and
bolts behind the math is the European EN-13384 chimney
calculation standard. You basically calculate the friction
(pressure) losses for "worst case scenario" which is with
a half load, in the summer, and verify that the appliance
will draft properly. Damien Lehmann in France has
developed an open source version and we are trying to
extend it to include additional heater types than only the
Austrian style. Austrian heaters are "channeled", where
the pressure loss calculation is based on the channel
cross sections and length. In North America we have
started building for example, a Russian system that is
based on buoyancy and has significantly less friction and
that the Austrian calculator can't handle.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div><b><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> How
much change in “fuel analysis” during a batch burn</b><b>?
Hadn’t heard of this. but found several
papers related toMHA, such as</b></div>
<div><a
href="http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/<wbr>2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%<wbr>20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.<wbr>pdf</a>.</div>
<div><b><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Mt
tentative conclusion is that this is un-needed for
TLUDs, but i am surprised at the assumptions
needed. I look forward to understanding this and
why measurements aren’t enough.</b></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>After seeing Crispin's presentation on this at the
Stove Design Challenge event in 2014 at Brookhaven Lab in
NY, a team from the University of Buffalo did some work
with it on a cordwood boiler. They found that with a batch
burn of standardized briquettes and a constant fuel
composition assumption "...H2O is underpredicted at early
times and overpredicted during the charcoal oxidation
stage, resulting in a mean error of approximately 64%".
The good news is that the two sort of cancel each other
out. I think the error in calculating overall efficiency
was somewhere in the 3% range.<span class="gmail-"><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail-">For our calculator effort, we need
an accurate flue mass flow rate and therefore need to
measure H2O. Therefore, Crispin's approach should tie in
well with this.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail-"><br>
<span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span></span><b>[RWLE:
I googled for Testo 330-2 and “inexpensive NDIR
benches” (on behalf of Andrew’s emphasis on this) and
tentatively concluded we can’t yet get equipment CO and
particulates in the range of $100. (NDIR =
Non-dispersive infra-red)</b><span class="gmail-"><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail-">Yes, that would be a stretch. A
Testo is in the $2500 range. There is an interesting
NDIR bench on ebay for $26.00:<br>
<a
href="https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL</a><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail-">but it only goes to 5000 ppm,
likely for HVAC room occupancy measurements. In
principle, you would only need to shorten the chamber in
order to get a higher range. At least that is what I
have seen on some older Horiba benches.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
CO is interesting to watch, but we don't care
that much about it. It is not regulated in
North America, and is not a health issue
except in dense urban areas. When we tested
the Austrian eco-labelled air system, PM
dropped about 50% and CO dropped about 80%. We
were a lot more excited about the PM drop,
because this is the number that matters here
to regulators. Europeans have told us that the
United States is about 10 years ahead of
Europe in air quality regulation. Largely due
to California, in particular Los Angeles. The
Europeans are only just now recognizing the PM
problem in urban areas from diesel and wood
burning, and addressing this in their
regulations.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><span class="gmail-m_5073098724179335148Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWLF:
Good. Maybe that helps the garage testing of TLUDs
a bit. If you ever hear of something in the $100
range, I believe a lot of people on this list would
be willing to add PM to what they are already able to
do quite cheaply to get weight, temperatures, and
times for energy efficiency computations.<br>
<br>
</b></div>
<div>Before my Testo arrived, I was able to do some useful
stuff by measuring opacity. $1.00 CdS sensor, light
source, ohm-meter:<br>
</div>
<div><a
href="http://www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>It shows you where in your cycle the PM is, but is
hard to correlate with the "EPA number"</div>
<span class="gmail-"></span><br>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
819.647.5092<br>
<a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.heatkit.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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