<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline}
.MsoChpDefault
{}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.WordSection1
{}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="#954F72">
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Dear Kirk</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
No thinks your stove isn't 'clean and efficient'. In truth we don't know what the performance is because none of the WBT spreadsheets for it are not available from Aprovecho (so you said when I asked) and LBNL not only doesn't share the spreadsheet behind
the performance claims, they do their own evaluation using their own method (I wrote to them and asked specifically about your stove).</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
In the real world. This is simply unacceptable. We do not accept anyone's performance rating for which we do know know the method and calculations. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Similarly, the calculations done in the EPA are not entirely in accordance with the WBT (I asked Jim Jetter for a copy of any stove test to see). </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
The ratings provided by LBNL and EPA Lab may reflect the actual performance on the WBT tasks quite well. No one knows for sure. As I have no need for performance not reflecting use, I don't use the cooking cycle or the calculations OD the WBT. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
I do know that both those labs report using IWA metrics without any caution that the 'fuel consumption' per litre boiled or simmered is of questionable value, or no value at all. The consumer of the information is left with the impression that the numbers are
meaningful which they may not be. To me that is at least, deceptive because both labs ae aware of the controversy and implications for the product ratings. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
It is telling that students at Berkeley are still using the WBT3.0 in view of the fact none of its descendants have been peer reviewed. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
The WBT should be eschewed and it's outputs ignored. It is unreliable in the strictest sense of the word. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Regards </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Crispin </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Xavier,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am surprised to read that you don’t know whether you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the water boiling portion of the test. I did not specify Aprovecho’s equipment in my question. I tested the same
stove on both Aprovecho’s and Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s equipment, and the tests both showed a very clean stove. Does the disagreement include Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water portion
of the test? What exactly do those who disagree with the WBT, disagree with, just the water boiling portion of the test or the overall test? Is the Controlled Cooking portion of the test also included in this disagreement?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk H.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=IssiZ2Ne5BQ6ELPc%2BP%2Fu0AsX3R%2BUFdeN%2F1cSK1Nbqoo%3D&reserved=0">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none; padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com">Xavier Brandao</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, December 18, 2017 3:29 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: Chinaandcookstoves]</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Dear Kirk,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>“Do you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water?“</i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">I don’t really know about that. I believe Crispin said the measurements from Aprovecho equipment was unreliable.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Other than that, the PEMS was breaking down all the time at Prakti, and I believe there are other cases where it happened.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Xavier</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Kirk H.<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> samedi 16 décembre 2017 00:55<br>
<b>À :</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re: China andcookstoves]</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have a question.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When I test a stove I see sensors, computer graphs and filters along with the pot of water. Do you disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with the boiling water? The water boiling portion of the overall test appears
to attract your attention. How much of the overall test do you disagree with? What do you mean when you disagree with the WBT, are you including the sensors, computer graphs and filters?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk H.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=IssiZ2Ne5BQ6ELPc%2BP%2Fu0AsX3R%2BUFdeN%2F1cSK1Nbqoo%3D&reserved=0">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"> </span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" style="border:none; border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="55" style="width:41.25pt; border:none; padding:13.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=yKNeJQu795pKNUsA8olGw3sXiRG7PgBbZ1AgH54WZ88%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="46" height="29" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" style="width:.4833in; height:.3in"></span></a></p>
</td>
<td width="470" style="width:352.5pt; border:none; padding:12.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#41424E">Garanti sans virus.
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=yKNeJQu795pKNUsA8olGw3sXiRG7PgBbZ1AgH54WZ88%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
<span style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>