<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Paul:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks for the reminder of your “almost” article in Boiling Point. I re-read and am reminded to ask whether any of your subscribers have chosen to retain the char (for biochar or other reasons). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> I do believe that this article and the data therein indeed “<i class="">solidly refutes the above statements”.</i></div><div class=""><i class=""><br class=""></i></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-style: italic; white-space: pre;"> </span>Thanks for the author information - none was given on that document.</div><div class=""><i class=""><br class=""></i></div><div class=""><i class="">Ron</i></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 24, 2017, at 1:29 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
Ron and all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Sorry to be 6 days late (limited time and some files went to Spam
folder -- not yet resoleved).<br class="">
<br class="">
I have only briefly lookes at the report from Indonesia. Author(s)
not given, but I believe Crispin and Cecil were part of the writing
team. <br class="">
<br class="">
Yes, we will need to exmine the comments such as on page 4:<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">The<br class="">
development of stoves that make charcoal concurrent<br class="">
with cooking has resulted in stoves that consume as<br class="">
much or more fuel than a three stove fire.<br class="">
<br class="">
When rated for their 'heat transfer efficiency' (a<br class="">
calculation of the percentage of heat released from the<br class="">
fire that enters the pot) there is a mismatch with 'fuel<br class="">
consumption' since the heat contained in the charcoal<br class="">
is not released during burning. The WBT rates the<br class="">
efficiency of the use of energy released, not the<br class="">
efficiency of the use of the energy in all the fuel<br class="">
extracted from the forest. Stoves that are 15-20%<br class="">
efficient from the 'forest's point of view' are being been<br class="">
credited with 'an efficiency' that is over 50% because<br class="">
they do not burn all the fuel, it is turned into charcoal.</blockquote>
Authors of papers, whoever they are, should be able to provide some
hard data (real numbers) supported by descriptions of how the data
were collected. <br class="">
<br class="">
In general, "containerized fires" (such as in most rocket and TLUD
and Save-80 and other stoves) shield and direct the heat to the pot
far better than do the 3-stove fires. They use less fuel, even
when there is a "by-product" of charcoal that no longer looks like
wood but has energy content that can be used for cooking in a
different stove.<br class="">
<br class="">
In the absence of the above requested data, the reported data from
the Deganga Case Study ( <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/deganga2016">www.drtlud.com/deganga2016</a> ) solidly
refutes the above statements.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul. <br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/19/2017 10:11 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:8B4F8A65-2868-46F5-9A3E-C637F858485D@comcast.net" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div class="">List: cc Crispin and Dr. Winter</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I’m
not sure why Crispin finds it so difficult to give a cite.
After five minutes I found this (non-fee) at a World Bank site
(it is not findable via Google Scholar):</div>
<div class=""><a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-15092" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-15092</a>.
It may be from 2015 - or 2103. I send this early mainly to
save time of others who may be looking for it (also early for
personal time commitment reasons).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>To
make sure I was at the right document, I decided to search the
document for “charcoal”. So, to give readers reason to look at
the whole document, I send this sentence (again - before reading
the entire document - there may be better examples):</div>
<div class=""><i class=""> “The
development of stoves that make charcoal concurrent
with cooking has resulted in stoves that consume as
much or more fuel than a three stove fire. “</i></div>
<div class=""><i class=""><br class="">
</i></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-style: italic; white-space: pre;"> </span>To
me this shows a serious lack of knowledge on TLUDs. This lack
was proven a week ago with Dr. Julien Winter’s nice report of
the exact opposite of this statement - and the delight of cooks
with the results of placing the (now) biochar in the ground
(without needing more fuel). (See this list on Dec. 5, and 3
subsequent responses from Dr. Winter). Dr. Winter reported not
only less fuel, but “free” char (maybe 25% char - by weight).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Scanning
this only briefly, I think there are reasons to also read this
in terms of the accuracy we need in a WBT or its possible
replacement. I am happy with a few percentage points, and this
authorless paper seems to think we need much better.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
recommend we have a serious discussion of this article
recommended by Crispin. That discussion might clear up a number
of misunderstandings both about char-making stoves and testing.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I’ll
come back later to raise some other points as Crispin (below)
critiqued Kirk (and me - a little).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 19, 2017, at 5:37 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Dear Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">I made no mention at all of sensors or
quality of equipment, which is not specified in the
WBT. I think it is not helpful for you or Ron or
anyone to impute disagreements where there are none.
The WBT is a test protocol that includes a test method
and a set of calculations. What it your point is
saying ‘it includes the CCT’ because it doesn’t
exclude it? Seriously: what is your theory of change?
Shooting messengers, even hosts of them, does not
change the message.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Conceptually there is nothing wrote with
heating or boiling water. If you want really accurate
results, heat water, don’t boil it – a point
repeatedly emphasized by Prof Lloyd. There is a paper
called “From Water Boiling Test to Water Heating Test”
which explores this, (From WBT to WHT, it is called).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">If you want even more accurate assessments of
your product, use formulas that are derived from first
principles. That exercise has been done very by the
SeTAR Centre and is why the HPT was created – as a way
of avoiding all the historical errors that have
accumulated in the WBT. I mentioned the LVH error in
the list of woods at the back of the spreadsheet. That
error was identified in 1987 by Sam Baldwin, someone
highly praised in certain circles. Yet after 30 year
(!) it has still not been corrected by Shell,
Berkeley, Aprovecho, Tami Bond and ETHOS nor the EPA
and GACC.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">How long should we wait for something as
simple as a an error in the LHV from HHV calculation
to be implemented? Do you agree 30 years is a bit
excessive (and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">still</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>not corrected)
is a bit excessive?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Why should anyone take seriously the system
of informal management of its “main messenger” that
cannot gets its technical house in order? I don’t.
Neither does Xavier. Not Jiddu. Nor the Indian
government nor the Chinese government nor many others.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span class="" lang="EN-US"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kirk
H.<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>19-Dec-17
12:25<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Thank you for your response. My
question was if the disagreement was with all parts of
the test or just the water boiling part. I guess your
answer means that the disagreement is with all parts
of the test including the CO sensors, CO2 sensors,
particulate sensors and the weighing of the filters,
as well as the water boiling portion. When you say
WBT, you mean all of this, not just the water boiling
in the pot. I also assume that the CCT is included in
this, since your response did not exclude it. But
since I have nothing else available for my use I will
continue as is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">I was using my stove to compare
only because it and the fuel were constant between
Aprovecho and LBNL and the results were similar, not
to flaunt it as a clean stove. Sorry about the
misunderstanding. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C508e7c300ead46b2ea9808d546a9a7da%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492616834369342&sdata=NaGH3iFpwknHhuDte1RIdz%2FvvVkaWq9mKs1HvZl20jo%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration:
underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Mail</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows 10<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width:
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span class="" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration:
underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday,
December 18, 2017 7:24 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration:
underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Stoves</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="EN-US">Dear Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">No thinks your stove
isn't 'clean and efficient'. In truth we don't know
what the performance is because none of the WBT
spreadsheets for it are not available from Aprovecho
(so you said when I asked) and LBNL not only doesn't
share the spreadsheet behind the performance claims,
they do their own evaluation using their own method
(I wrote to them and asked specifically about your
stove).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">In the real world. This
is simply unacceptable. We do not accept anyone's
performance rating for which we do know know the
method and calculations. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">Similarly, the
calculations done in the EPA are not entirely in
accordance with the WBT (I asked Jim Jetter for a
copy of any stove test to see). <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">The ratings provided by
LBNL and EPA Lab may reflect the actual performance
on the WBT tasks quite well. No one knows for sure.
As I have no need for performance not reflecting
use, I don't use the cooking cycle or the
calculations OD the WBT. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">I do know that both
those labs report using IWA metrics without any
caution that the 'fuel consumption' per litre boiled
or simmered is of questionable value, or no value at
all. The consumer of the information is left with
the impression that the numbers are meaningful which
they may not be. To me that is at least, deceptive
because both labs ae aware of the controversy and
implications for the product ratings. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">It is telling that
students at Berkeley are still using the WBT3.0 in
view of the fact none of its descendants have been
peer reviewed. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">The WBT should be
eschewed and it's outputs ignored. It is unreliable
in the strictest sense of the word. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">Regards <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US">Crispin <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color:
white;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Xavier,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">I am surprised to read that
you don’t know whether you disagree with the
sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with
the water boiling portion of the test. I did not
specify Aprovecho’s equipment in my question. I
tested the same stove on both Aprovecho’s and
Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s equipment, and the
tests both showed a very clean stove. Does the
disagreement include Lawrence Berkley National
Lab’s sensors, computer graphs, and filters along
with the boiling water portion of the test? What
exactly do those who disagree with the WBT,
disagree with, just the water boiling portion of
the test or the overall test? Is the Controlled
Cooking portion of the test also included in this
disagreement?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca5d4400eab92416a77be08d54688eb5a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636492476230709778&sdata=IssiZ2Ne5BQ6ELPc%2BP%2Fu0AsX3R%2BUFdeN%2F1cSK1Nbqoo%3D&reserved=0" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span class="" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Xavier Brandao</a><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday,
December 18, 2017 3:29 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">'Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves'</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR">Dear Kirk,</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">“Do you
disagree with the sensors, computer graphs, and
filters along with the boiling water?“</span></i><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR">I don’t really know about that. I
believe Crispin said the measurements from
Aprovecho equipment was unreliable.</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR">Other than that, the PEMS was breaking
down all the time at Prakti, and I believe there
are other cases where it happened.</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR"><br class="">
Best,</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR">Xavier</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="" lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="" lang="FR">De :</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;" class="" lang="FR"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves
[<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">De la part de</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk
H.<br class="">
<b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>samedi
16 décembre 2017 00:55<br class="">
<b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves<br class="">
<b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
China andcookstoves]</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">I have a question.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">When I test a stove I see
sensors, computer graphs and filters along with
the pot of water. Do you disagree with the
sensors, computer graphs, and filters along with
the boiling water? The water boiling portion of
the overall test appears to attract your
attention. How much of the overall test do you
disagree with? What do you mean when you disagree
with the WBT, are you including the sensors,
computer graphs and filters?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
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<pre wrap="" class="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
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