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Crispin, see below;<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/24/2017 4:13 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MWHPR22MB07846CFAF07ECD35E675A7C3B1000@MWHPR22MB0784.namprd22.prod.outlook.com">
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Dear Paul</div>
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<br>
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I have been providing hard numbers literally for years and no
one is taking the point seriously. </div>
</blockquote>
I read you messages now and in the past and somehow we still
differ. Either the sender or the reader (or both) is not making the
clear connection. <br>
<br>
You thanked me for releasing the Quad 2 spreadsheets. (and your
analysis of them did not convince me then.) But when I ask for such
data from Indonesia, you only refer me to the publication which does
not give that data. Maybe you could try again with some indonesia
data. Show me the data from a TLUD stove that consumed as much
fuel as a three-stove fire to do the same task. Be sure to include
all the relevant info about the stove, the fuel and how the stove
was operated. <br>
<br>
And to remind all readers, Crispin and I agree that FUEL efficiency
is different from ENERY efficiency. Many of the proceedures and
terminology of stove testing were being established before
"char-making TLUD stoves" were being seriously considered. Back
then (and still today), there is no meaningful difference between
those two effficiencies WHEN THE STOVE BURNS ALL THE FUEL TO ASH. <br>
<br>
Things have changed, and the OLD definition of efficiency (with
either FUEL or ENERGY as the descriptive term) should probably be
reconsidered. <br>
<br>
Some places, FUEL efficiency is important. Some places ENERGY
efficiency is important. Some places (with abundant fuel), this is
not imporant to the user. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MWHPR22MB07846CFAF07ECD35E675A7C3B1000@MWHPR22MB0784.namprd22.prod.outlook.com">
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Perhaps now that you are all
reading the papers and realising there is a serious side to this
fuel consumption business, it will be given the proper attention
it deserves. </div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<br>
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<span style="line-height:initial">"Authors of papers, whoever
they are, should be able to provide some hard data (real
numbers) supported by descriptions of how the data were
collected."</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">This is supported by tests and
ratings gathered over a number of years including testing
conducted by the YDD Lab, however the argument is conceptual,
not referring to any particular stove. I have provided
examples of actual stoves including the Quad II test in
Uganda, which was based on data graciously made available by
you. </span></div>
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</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">That one hard cover example
is sufficient to make the point: the rated 'fuel consumption'
is far less than the actual fuel consumption. Only one example
is needed to make the point, the point being that the WBT, as
Ron prefers it, grossly over-rates the fuel efficiency of char
making stoves. It also over-rates the performance of Rocket
stoves and similar if it has a fuel shelf elevating the fuel. </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">Properly assessed, a char
making stove has to account for the raw fuel needed 'from
outside the system' each time it is used. </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">At the time that document was
written, there were errors later corrected in 2012 which
reduced the over-rating significantly but still rated it, in
the case of a 'good char maker', at over double the actual
efficiency.
</span></div>
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</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">That this point is finally
getting through to the promoters of these stoves is a nice
holiday present to me. Absent a proper consideration of the
performance using appropriate metrics, there is only chaos and
cheating. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">May all acquaintance be forgot
in the new year and all things made right. </span></div>
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</span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">Regards </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial">Crispin </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>Ron and all,<br>
<br>
Sorry to be 6 days late (limited time and some files went to
Spam folder -- not yet resoleved).<br>
<br>
I have only briefly lookes at the report from Indonesia.
Author(s) not given, but I believe Crispin and Cecil were part
of the writing team.
<br>
<br>
Yes, we will need to exmine the comments such as on page 4:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The<br>
development of stoves that make charcoal concurrent<br>
with cooking has resulted in stoves that consume as<br>
much or more fuel than a three stove fire.<br>
<br>
When rated for their 'heat transfer efficiency' (a<br>
calculation of the percentage of heat released from the<br>
fire that enters the pot) there is a mismatch with 'fuel<br>
consumption' since the heat contained in the charcoal<br>
is not released during burning. The WBT rates the<br>
efficiency of the use of energy released, not the<br>
efficiency of the use of the energy in all the fuel<br>
extracted from the forest. Stoves that are 15-20%<br>
efficient from the 'forest's point of view' are being been<br>
credited with 'an efficiency' that is over 50% because<br>
they do not burn all the fuel, it is turned into charcoal.</blockquote>
Authors of papers, whoever they are, should be able to provide
some hard data (real numbers) supported by descriptions of how
the data were collected.
<br>
<br>
In general, "containerized fires" (such as in most rocket and
TLUD and Save-80 and other stoves) shield and direct the heat to
the pot far better than do the 3-stove fires. They use less
fuel, even when there is a "by-product" of charcoal that no
longer looks like wood but has energy content that can be used
for cooking in a different stove.<br>
<br>
In the absence of the above requested data, the reported data
from the Deganga Case Study (
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com%2Fdeganga2016&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=Yon8vGHvzC4G1VabeUTDieHTq6WlNXVDrWeDg%2BObatk%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">
www.drtlud.com/deganga2016</a> ) solidly refutes the above
statements.<br>
<br>
Paul. <br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=E91CUpnLu3PXcD1yvmxkbjLKeeOFFAz%2Bta4hNqoUOk4%3D&reserved=0" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/19/2017 10:11 AM, Ronal W.
Larson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="">List: cc Crispin and Dr. Winter</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I’m
not sure why Crispin finds it so difficult to give a cite.
After five minutes I found this (non-fee) at a World Bank
site (it is not findable via Google Scholar):</div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcollaboration.worldbank.org%2Fdocs%2FDOC-15092&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=vNLSbT%2Bate4KkGAe3NPPQRsasENQfwWj8bKY5l2k5BM%3D&reserved=0"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-15092</a>.
It may be from 2015 - or 2103. I send this early mainly
to save time of others who may be looking for it (also early
for personal time commitment reasons).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>To
make sure I was at the right document, I decided to search
the document for “charcoal”. So, to give readers reason to
look at the whole document, I send this sentence (again -
before reading the entire document - there may be better
examples):</div>
<div class=""><i class=""> “The development of stoves that
make charcoal concurrent with cooking has resulted in
stoves that consume as much or more fuel than a three
stove fire. “</i></div>
<div class=""><i class=""><br class="">
</i></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-style:italic; white-space:pre"></span>To
me this shows a serious lack of knowledge on TLUDs. This
lack was proven a week ago with Dr. Julien Winter’s nice
report of the exact opposite of this statement - and the
delight of cooks with the results of placing the (now)
biochar in the ground (without needing more fuel). (See
this list on Dec. 5, and 3 subsequent responses from Dr.
Winter). Dr. Winter reported not only less fuel, but
“free” char (maybe 25% char - by weight).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Scanning
this only briefly, I think there are reasons to also read
this in terms of the accuracy we need in a WBT or its
possible replacement. I am happy with a few percentage
points, and this authorless paper seems to think we need
much better.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I
recommend we have a serious discussion of this article
recommended by Crispin. That discussion might clear up a
number of misunderstandings both about char-making stoves
and testing.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I’ll
come back later to raise some other points as Crispin
(below) critiqued Kirk (and me - a little).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 19, 2017, at 5:37 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Dear Kirk</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">I made no mention at all of sensors
or quality of equipment, which is not specified in
the WBT. I think it is not helpful for you or Ron
or anyone to impute disagreements where there are
none. The WBT is a test protocol that includes a
test method and a set of calculations. What it
your point is saying ‘it includes the CCT’ because
it doesn’t exclude it? Seriously: what is your
theory of change? Shooting messengers, even hosts
of them, does not change the message.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Conceptually there is nothing wrote
with heating or boiling water. If you want really
accurate results, heat water, don’t boil it – a
point repeatedly emphasized by Prof Lloyd. There
is a paper called “From Water Boiling Test to
Water Heating Test” which explores this, (From WBT
to WHT, it is called).</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">If you want even more accurate
assessments of your product, use formulas that are
derived from first principles. That exercise has
been done very by the SeTAR Centre and is why the
HPT was created – as a way of avoiding all the
historical errors that have accumulated in the
WBT. I mentioned the LVH error in the list of
woods at the back of the spreadsheet. That error
was identified in 1987 by Sam Baldwin, someone
highly praised in certain circles. Yet after 30
year (!) it has still not been corrected by Shell,
Berkeley, Aprovecho, Tami Bond and ETHOS nor the
EPA and GACC.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">How long should we wait for something
as simple as a an error in the LHV from HHV
calculation to be implemented? Do you agree 30
years is a bit excessive (and<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i
class="">still</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>not
corrected) is a bit excessive?</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Why should anyone take seriously the
system of informal management of its “main
messenger” that cannot gets its technical house in
order? I don’t. Neither does Xavier. Not Jiddu.
Nor the Indian government nor the Chinese
government nor many others.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Regards</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Crispin</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="border-style:solid none none;
border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);
border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="" lang="EN-US"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves
[<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
class="">On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kirk
H.<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>19-Dec-17
12:25<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves <<a
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Thank you for your
response. My question was if the disagreement was
with all parts of the test or just the water
boiling part. I guess your answer means that the
disagreement is with all parts of the test
including the CO sensors, CO2 sensors, particulate
sensors and the weighing of the filters, as well
as the water boiling portion. When you say WBT,
you mean all of this, not just the water boiling
in the pot. I also assume that the CCT is
included in this, since your response did not
exclude it. But since I have nothing else
available for my use I will continue as is.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">I was using my stove to
compare only because it and the fuel were constant
between Aprovecho and LBNL and the results were
similar, not to flaunt it as a clean stove. Sorry
about the misunderstanding. </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Sent from<span
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<b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
class="" lang="EN-US"><a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday,
December 18, 2017 7:24 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">Stoves</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]</span></div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Dear Kirk</span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">No thinks your stove isn't 'clean
and efficient'. In truth we don't know what the
performance is because none of the WBT
spreadsheets for it are not available from
Aprovecho (so you said when I asked) and LBNL
not only doesn't share the spreadsheet behind
the performance claims, they do their own
evaluation using their own method (I wrote to
them and asked specifically about your stove).</span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">In the real world. This is simply
unacceptable. We do not accept anyone's
performance rating for which we do know know the
method and calculations. </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Similarly, the calculations done in
the EPA are not entirely in accordance with the
WBT (I asked Jim Jetter for a copy of any stove
test to see). </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">The ratings provided by LBNL and
EPA Lab may reflect the actual performance on
the WBT tasks quite well. No one knows for sure.
As I have no need for performance not reflecting
use, I don't use the cooking cycle or the
calculations OD the WBT. </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">I do know that both those labs
report using IWA metrics without any caution
that the 'fuel consumption' per litre boiled or
simmered is of questionable value, or no value
at all. The consumer of the information is left
with the impression that the numbers are
meaningful which they may not be. To me that is
at least, deceptive because both labs ae aware
of the controversy and implications for the
product ratings. </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">It is telling that students at
Berkeley are still using the WBT3.0 in view of
the fact none of its descendants have been peer
reviewed. </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">The WBT should be eschewed and it's
outputs ignored. It is unreliable in the
strictest sense of the word. </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Regards </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Crispin </span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;
background-color:white">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Xavier,</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">I am surprised to
read that you don’t know whether you disagree
with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters
along with the water boiling portion of the
test. I did not specify Aprovecho’s equipment
in my question. I tested the same stove on
both Aprovecho’s and Lawrence Berkley National
Lab’s equipment, and the tests both showed a
very clean stove. Does the disagreement
include Lawrence Berkley National Lab’s
sensors, computer graphs, and filters along
with the boiling water portion of the test?
What exactly do those who disagree with the
WBT, disagree with, just the water boiling
portion of the test or the overall test? Is
the Controlled Cooking portion of the test
also included in this disagreement?</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span class="" lang="EN-US">Sent from<span
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<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
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font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">From:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span
class="" lang="EN-US"><a
href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">Xavier Brandao</a><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday,
December 18, 2017 3:29 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class=""
style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was Re:
Chinaandcookstoves]</span></div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR">Dear Kirk,</span><span class=""
lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">“Do you
disagree with the sensors, computer graphs,
and filters along with the boiling water?“</span></i><span
class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR">I don’t really know about that. I
believe Crispin said the measurements from
Aprovecho equipment was unreliable.</span><span
class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR">Other than that, the PEMS was
breaking down all the time at Prakti, and I
believe there are other cases where it
happened.</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR"><br class="">
Best,</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR">Xavier</span><span class=""
lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="FR"> </span><span class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="border-style:solid none
none; border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);
border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt;
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><span class=""
style="font-size:10pt;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="FR">De :</span></b><span
class="" style="font-size:10pt;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang="FR"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves
[<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
class="">De la part de</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk
H.<br class="">
<b class="">Envoyé :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>samedi
16 décembre 2017 00:55<br class="">
<b class="">À :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves<br class="">
<b class="">Objet :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] Going back to 3-Stone Fire [Was
Re: China andcookstoves]</span><span
class="" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="FR"> </span><span class=""
lang="EN-US"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">I have a question.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">When I test a stove
I see sensors, computer graphs and filters
along with the pot of water. Do you disagree
with the sensors, computer graphs, and filters
along with the boiling water? The water
boiling portion of the overall test appears to
attract your attention. How much of the
overall test do you disagree with? What do
you mean when you disagree with the WBT, are
you including the sensors, computer graphs and
filters?</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US">Kirk H.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
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float:none; display:inline!important">Stoves mailing
list</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
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white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
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letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
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white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
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float:none; display:inline!important">to Send a
Message to the list, use the email address</span><br
class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px;
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<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
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moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px;
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<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
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<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px;
float:none; display:inline!important">to UNSUBSCRIBE
or Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br
class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px;
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letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a
href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fstoves_lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=%2BhsW9ixOnBXVjXDLBf5WhdP7KzoylzP44Ls1uUbArr4%3D&reserved=0"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helvetica;
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letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
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moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px;
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letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px;
float:none; display:inline!important">for more Biomass
Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a
href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstoves.bioenergylists.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=XYGi6YVySZL2n1tBa5vWD9NvVLNOtbpiBD7BtAFuz08%3D&reserved=0"
class="" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);
text-decoration:underline; font-family:Helvetica;
font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal;
letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start;
text-indent:0px; text-transform:none;
white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
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<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.bioenergylists.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fstoves_lists.bioenergylists.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=%2BhsW9ixOnBXVjXDLBf5WhdP7KzoylzP44Ls1uUbArr4%3D&reserved=0" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstoves.bioenergylists.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3c020beb6ae44e3f3aa908d54b0d09c0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636497441725144771&sdata=XYGi6YVySZL2n1tBa5vWD9NvVLNOtbpiBD7BtAFuz08%3D&reserved=0" moz-do-not-send="true">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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