<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Dear Terrence and Steven,<br>
<br>
I am glad to assist with the masonary heating system. Also nice to
discover your initial and on-going interests:
<blockquote type="cite"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Steven and I are focusing on biomass hot water
heating systems for multi-urban, institutional and commercial
project size </span></blockquote>
About THAT topic, I have additional inputs to share with you. In a
separate effort from my cookstoves work, a few years back my partner
Paul Wever and I created Chip Energy (Illinois company) and
developed the Chip Energy Biomass Furnace. Beautiful for making
the hot water heating systems!!! I can certainly be scaled up.
Hard to make smaller unless the price does not go down much. <br>
<br>
You can read about it at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chipenergy.com">www.chipenergy.com</a> Four were made.
One that is complete in a 20 ft shipping container is currently
available (about US$45,000), and certainly can be seen in operation,
including at Chip Energy in Goodfield, Illinois. Produces about 50
- 60 KW thermal (>200,000 BTU/hr). Are you interested in the
smaller end of the range of such water heating systems? Yes, it
does produce charcoal, with even the ability to adjust char
characteristics related to the temperature of char creation. <br>
<br>
With that introduction to express my interest in your work, please
send me information about your interests in biomass hot water
heating systems. SIZE is a major distinguishing factor. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/18/2018 11:08 AM, Sauve, Terrence
(OMAFRA) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3C90FB1460605945AB59E1E1A64CE51E37AA134D@CTSPIGDCAPMXS41.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:v;
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.gmail-m5073098724179335148apple-tab-span
{mso-style-name:gmail-m_5073098724179335148apple-tab-span;}
span.gmail-
{mso-style-name:gmail-;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Hi Paul, this is interesting and very new to
us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">I was lucky to participate in Crispin’s stove
testing camp in Eastern Ontario a couple of years ago. This
was my first introduction to third-world country design and
measurements for stoves, as well as more typical NA stoves.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Steven and I are focusing on biomass hot water
heating systems for multi-urban, institutional and
commercial project size so we will have to spend more time
understanding how masonry heaters and smaller residential
stoves all work out.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">We will be participating on the update of CSA
B415.1-10 standard, which should be revived at a certain
point. I imagine and strongly recommend that any North
American resident should be interested in its development,
now that it’s an official reference in the US EPA NSPS
regulation for residential forced-air wood furnaces
(cordwood and pellet). Also, the stack loss method is used
to report stove efficiency, since we don’t assume a blanket
75% HHV for all EPA Phase II certified stoves…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Thanks and looking forward to hear your
interests and developments. I am a past listserv reader
(gasification, biogas, stoves) back in the day when I was at
university…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Terrence<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D">_________________________________________________________________________</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D">Terrence
Sauvé, M.Sc., P.Eng.</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D">OMAFRA<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"><a
href="www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-sauve-4703"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-sauve-4703</a></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA">Tél. (613) 679-4703</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:v;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> Paul Anderson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> December-19-17 4:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Ronal
W. Larson<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mhatech@yahoogroups.com">mhatech@yahoogroups.com</a>; Sauve, Terrence
(OMAFRA); Andrew Heggie; Law, Steven (MOECC)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Top lit updraft combustors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nolbert and all,<br>
<br>
I just want to thank you and the others for looking into the
use of TLUD technology for masonary heaters. Nice website
for the MH Association
<a href="http://www.mha-net.org/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.mha-net.org/</a>
<br>
<br>
I would be delighted to work with you and the MHA in any ways
that incorporate either TLUD stove technology or other methods
(such as modified flame cap that is not yet being studied)
that emphasize pyrolysis and therefore also have strong
interest in the resultant charcoal. Maybe there is or will
be a small group of such enthusiasts. If so, count me in.<br>
<br>
I live in Illinois, but that puts me into the North America
focus of your group!!<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/17/2017 7:38 AM, Norbert Senf
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
Ronal W. Larson <<a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert cc Biochar list,
Andrew, MHA (Masonry Heating Association) list,
and Terrence and Steven<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Hello to MHA and Terrence
and Steven - who I see are in Ontario Government
departments. Feel free to jump in.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2, I am particularly thinking
of folks in Ontario modifying MHA systems so they
produce char (mostly to go in the soil). I
believe MH users could find that fuel costs could
become negative. (This idea thanks to Andrew)
The fuel piles will have to be larger or re-fired
more often - but these char-makers seem to be
cleaner.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it pretty unlikely to
get through US departments as rapidly as OMAFRA
and OMOECC, where Government official seem to
believe there is global warming.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">See few comments below - and
thanks for yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(snip)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>[RWLC: I think we are a
long way from having acceptance of a “ software
simulator”.</b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>I would have guess that
most of your MH units are “one-off”. They
can’t be tested in the field at low enough
cost?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the masonry heater industry we
have a precedent from Austria. They have a
proprietary calculator, that is accepted for
certifying one-off heaters. The main nuts and bolts
behind the math is the European EN-13384 chimney
calculation standard. You basically calculate the
friction (pressure) losses for "worst case scenario"
which is with a half load, in the summer, and verify
that the appliance will draft properly. Damien
Lehmann in France has developed an open source
version and we are trying to extend it to include
additional heater types than only the Austrian
style. Austrian heaters are "channeled", where the
pressure loss calculation is based on the channel
cross sections and length. In North America we have
started building for example, a Russian system that
is based on buoyancy and has significantly less
friction and that the Austrian calculator can't
handle.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> How much change in “fuel
analysis” during a batch burn? Hadn’t heard
of this. but found several papers related
toMHA, such as</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Mt tentative conclusion is
that this is un-needed for TLUDs, but i am
surprised at the assumptions needed. I look
forward to understanding this and
why measurements aren’t enough.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">After
seeing Crispin's presentation on this at the Stove
Design Challenge event in 2014 at Brookhaven Lab in
NY, a team from the University of Buffalo did some
work with it on a cordwood boiler. They found that
with a batch burn of standardized briquettes and a
constant fuel composition assumption "...H2O is
underpredicted at early times and overpredicted
during the charcoal oxidation stage, resulting in a
mean error of approximately 64%". The good news is
that the two sort of cancel each other out. I think
the error in calculating overall efficiency was
somewhere in the 3% range.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-">For our
calculator effort, we need an accurate flue mass
flow rate and therefore need to measure H2O.
Therefore, Crispin's approach should tie in well
with this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<b>[RWLE: I googled for Testo 330-2
and “inexpensive NDIR benches” (on behalf of
Andrew’s emphasis on this) and tentatively
concluded we can’t yet get equipment CO and
particulates in the range of $100. (NDIR =
Non-dispersive infra-red)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="gmail-">Yes, that would be a stretch. A
Testo is in the $2500 range. There is an
interesting NDIR bench on ebay for $26.00:</span><br>
<span class="gmail-"><a
href="https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-">but it only
goes to 5000 ppm, likely for HVAC room occupancy
measurements. In principle, you would only need to
shorten the chamber in order to get a higher
range. At least that is what I have seen on some
older Horiba benches.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">CO is interesting to
watch, but we don't care that much about
it. It is not regulated in North America,
and is not a health issue except in dense
urban areas. When we tested the Austrian
eco-labelled air system, PM dropped about
50% and CO dropped about 80%. We were a
lot more excited about the PM drop,
because this is the number that matters
here to regulators. Europeans have told us
that the United States is about 10 years
ahead of Europe in air quality regulation.
Largely due to California, in particular
Los Angeles. The Europeans are only just
now recognizing the PM problem in urban
areas from diesel and wood burning, and
addressing this in their regulations.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>[RWLF:
Good. Maybe that helps the garage testing of
TLUDs a bit. If you ever hear of something in
the $100 range, I believe a lot of people on
this list would be willing to add PM to what
they are already able to do quite cheaply to
get weight, temperatures, and times for energy
efficiency computations.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Before my Testo arrived, I was
able to do some useful stuff by measuring opacity.
$1.00 CdS sensor, light source, ohm-meter:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><a
href="http://www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It shows you where in your
cycle the PM is, but is hard to correlate with the
"EPA number"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
819.647.5092<br>
<a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.heatkit.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>