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Dear Steven,<br>
<br>
I have copied this message (and yours below) to my partner, Paul
Wever, President of Chip Energy.<br>
<br>
Please note the change in the Subject title: We are NOT discussing
a TLUD cookdstove. We are discussing what is called "AVUD"
(Another Variaion UpDraft) gasification. It is part of the
article at: <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/BP53-Anderson-14.pdf">http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/BP53-Anderson-14.pdf</a><br>
<br>
That article was written before we made the larger Biomass Furnace.<br>
<br>
The Chip Energy Biomass Furnace could be rated at 50 kW thermal as
it currently stands. And we have results from a thrid-party
evaluator of the emissions.. But we have not done any USEPA
standards tests. And we are not planning on such standards
testing. That could be done in conjunction with an Ontario entity.<br>
<br>
And as I mentioned, there is a fullly functional unit available in a
20 ft shipping container.<br>
<br>
Any assistance that you or others could provide would be
appreciated.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/23/2018 12:03 PM, Law, Steven
(MOECC) wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C3655F7C01FAB74792EBA3AB77938FA853A79023@CTSPIGDCAPMXS36.cihs.ad.gov.on.ca">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi
Paul,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is
your Chip Energy system certified to any USEPA performance
standard? We make use of US standards for wood heating
devices in our building code.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also,
we have a new regulation that says any clean wood heating
device is exempt from the air quality regulation if the heat
output is a maximum of 50 kW thermal, otherwise you will
have to get some kind of air quality permit, depending on a
number of factors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So,
if your device can be “rated” to a maximum of 50 kW thermal
output (or less) and be certified to the US standards as
last referenced in Ontario’s building code, you might have a
case for selling your technology to customers in Ontario.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
hope this is helpful, let us know if you wish to discuss
further.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best
regards, Steven<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> Paul Anderson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> January 18, 2018 2:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sauve, Terrence (OMAFRA); Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mhatech@yahoogroups.com">mhatech@yahoogroups.com</a>; Andrew Heggie; Law,
Steven (MOECC); Ronal W. Larson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Top lit updraft combustors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Terrence and Steven,<br>
<br>
I am glad to assist with the masonary heating system. Also
nice to discover your initial and on-going interests:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven
and I are focusing on biomass hot water heating systems for
multi-urban, institutional and commercial project size
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">About THAT topic, I have additional inputs
to share with you. In a separate effort from my cookstoves
work, a few years back my partner Paul Wever and I created
Chip Energy (Illinois company) and developed the Chip Energy
Biomass Furnace. Beautiful for making the hot water heating
systems!!! I can certainly be scaled up. Hard to make
smaller unless the price does not go down much.
<br>
<br>
You can read about it at <a
href="http://www.chipenergy.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.chipenergy.com</a>
Four were made. One that is complete in a 20 ft shipping
container is currently available (about US$45,000), and
certainly can be seen in operation, including at Chip Energy
in Goodfield, Illinois. Produces about 50 - 60 KW thermal
(>200,000 BTU/hr). Are you interested in the smaller end
of the range of such water heating systems? Yes, it does
produce charcoal, with even the ability to adjust char
characteristics related to the temperature of char creation. <br>
<br>
With that introduction to express my interest in your work,
please send me information about your interests in biomass hot
water heating systems. SIZE is a major distinguishing
factor.
<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/18/2018 11:08 AM, Sauve, Terrence
(OMAFRA) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi
Paul, this is interesting and very new to us.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
was lucky to participate in Crispin’s stove testing camp
in Eastern Ontario a couple of years ago. This was my
first introduction to third-world country design and
measurements for stoves, as well as more typical NA
stoves.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steven
and I are focusing on biomass hot water heating systems
for multi-urban, institutional and commercial project size
so we will have to spend more time understanding how
masonry heaters and smaller residential stoves all work
out. </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
will be participating on the update of CSA B415.1-10
standard, which should be revived at a certain point. I
imagine and strongly recommend that any North American
resident should be interested in its development, now that
it’s an official reference in the US EPA NSPS regulation
for residential forced-air wood furnaces (cordwood and
pellet). Also, the stack loss method is used to report
stove efficiency, since we don’t assume a blanket 75% HHV
for all EPA Phase II certified stoves…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
and looking forward to hear your interests and
developments. I am a past listserv reader (gasification,
biogas, stoves) back in the day when I was at university…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Terrence</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"v","serif";color:#1F497D">_________________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"v","serif";color:#1F497D">Terrence
Sauvé, M.Sc., P.Eng.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"v","serif";color:#1F497D">OMAFRA</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"v","serif";color:#1F497D"><a
href="www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-sauve-4703"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-sauve-4703</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"v","serif";color:#1F497D">Tél.
(613) 679-4703</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> Paul Anderson [<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> December-19-17 4:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Ronal
W. Larson<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:mhatech@yahoogroups.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mhatech@yahoogroups.com</a>;
Sauve, Terrence (OMAFRA); Andrew Heggie; Law, Steven
(MOECC)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Top lit updraft
combustors</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nolbert and all,<br>
<br>
I just want to thank you and the others for looking into the
use of TLUD technology for masonary heaters. Nice website
for the MH Association
<a href="http://www.mha-net.org/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.mha-net.org/</a>
<br>
<br>
I would be delighted to work with you and the MHA in any
ways that incorporate either TLUD stove technology or other
methods (such as modified flame cap that is not yet being
studied) that emphasize pyrolysis and therefore also have
strong interest in the resultant charcoal. Maybe there is
or will be a small group of such enthusiasts. If so, count
me in.<br>
<br>
I live in Illinois, but that puts me into the North America
focus of your group!!<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 12/17/2017 7:38 AM, Norbert Senf
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
Ronal W. Larson <<a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert cc Biochar list,
Andrew, MHA (Masonry Heating Association) list,
and Terrence and Steven<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Hello to MHA and Terrence
and Steven - who I see are in Ontario Government
departments. Feel free to jump in.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2, I am particularly
thinking of folks in Ontario modifying MHA
systems so they produce char (mostly to go in
the soil). I believe MH users could find that
fuel costs could become negative. (This idea
thanks to Andrew) The fuel piles will have to
be larger or re-fired more often - but these
char-makers seem to be cleaner.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it pretty unlikely to
get through US departments as rapidly as OMAFRA
and OMOECC, where Government official seem to
believe there is global warming.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">See few comments below - and
thanks for yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(snip)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>[RWLC: I think we are a
long way from having acceptance of a “
software simulator”.</b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>I would have guess that
most of your MH units are “one-off”. They
can’t be tested in the field at low enough
cost?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the masonry heater industry
we have a precedent from Austria. They have a
proprietary calculator, that is accepted for
certifying one-off heaters. The main nuts and
bolts behind the math is the European EN-13384
chimney calculation standard. You basically
calculate the friction (pressure) losses for
"worst case scenario" which is with a half load,
in the summer, and verify that the appliance will
draft properly. Damien Lehmann in France has
developed an open source version and we are trying
to extend it to include additional heater types
than only the Austrian style. Austrian heaters are
"channeled", where the pressure loss calculation
is based on the channel cross sections and length.
In North America we have started building for
example, a Russian system that is based on
buoyancy and has significantly less friction and
that the Austrian calculator can't handle.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> How much change
in “fuel analysis” during a batch burn?
Hadn’t heard of this. but found several
papers related toMHA, such as</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mha-net.org/docs/temp/2017-10-16%20Pemberton-Pigott%20-%20Decombustion%20Theory.pdf</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Mt tentative conclusion
is that this is un-needed for TLUDs, but i
am surprised at the assumptions needed. I
look forward to understanding this and
why measurements aren’t enough.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">After
seeing Crispin's presentation on this at the Stove
Design Challenge event in 2014 at Brookhaven Lab
in NY, a team from the University of Buffalo did
some work with it on a cordwood boiler. They found
that with a batch burn of standardized briquettes
and a constant fuel composition assumption "...H2O
is underpredicted at early times and overpredicted
during the charcoal oxidation stage, resulting in
a mean error of approximately 64%". The good news
is that the two sort of cancel each other out. I
think the error in calculating overall efficiency
was somewhere in the 3% range.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-">For our
calculator effort, we need an accurate flue mass
flow rate and therefore need to measure H2O.
Therefore, Crispin's approach should tie in well
with this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<b>[RWLE: I googled for Testo 330-2
and “inexpensive NDIR benches” (on behalf of
Andrew’s emphasis on this) and tentatively
concluded we can’t yet get equipment CO and
particulates in the range of $100. (NDIR =
Non-dispersive infra-red)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="gmail-">Yes, that would be a stretch. A
Testo is in the $2500 range. There is an
interesting NDIR bench on ebay for $26.00:</span><br>
<span class="gmail-"><a
href="https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ebay.com/itm/NDIR-Infrared-Carbon-Dioxide-CO2-Sensor-Module-MH-Z14A-Serial-Port-0-5000ppm/282697897512?epid=14007377319&hash=item41d21b9628:g:cZ4AAOSwjodZ5eRL</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-">but it
only goes to 5000 ppm, likely for HVAC room
occupancy measurements. In principle, you would
only need to shorten the chamber in order to get
a higher range. At least that is what I have
seen on some older Horiba benches.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">CO is interesting to
watch, but we don't care that much about
it. It is not regulated in North
America, and is not a health issue
except in dense urban areas. When we
tested the Austrian eco-labelled air
system, PM dropped about 50% and CO
dropped about 80%. We were a lot more
excited about the PM drop, because this
is the number that matters here to
regulators. Europeans have told us that
the United States is about 10 years
ahead of Europe in air quality
regulation. Largely due to California,
in particular Los Angeles. The Europeans
are only just now recognizing the PM
problem in urban areas from diesel and
wood burning, and addressing this in
their regulations.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>[RWLF:
Good. Maybe that helps the garage testing
of TLUDs a bit. If you ever hear of something
in the $100 range, I believe a lot of people
on this list would be willing to add PM to
what they are already able to do quite
cheaply to get weight, temperatures, and
times for energy efficiency computations.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Before my Testo arrived, I
was able to do some useful stuff by measuring
opacity. $1.00 CdS sensor, light source,
ohm-meter:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><a
href="http://www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.mha-net.org/graphics2/17121701.JPG</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It shows you where in your
cycle the PM is, but is hard to correlate with
the "EPA number"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Norbert Senf<br>
Masonry Stove Builders<br>
25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>
819.647.5092<br>
<a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.heatkit.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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