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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That the WBT is still part of the ISO TC 285 is news to me. You
seem to disagree with Crispin on that point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have no opinion on the TC 285, but I have one on the WBT, it
needs to be scrapped.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It needs to be scrapped now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i>« How about clarifying to GACC that your Jan 15
letter to GACC was NOT intended to impact their decision on this new version -
of which they are a key part? »<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is very much intended to impact any of their decision on
protocols. The WBT, outside or inside of the TC 285, has to stop being used or
promoted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>« I’ll wager they will have misunderstood you as much as did
I. My guess is they will respond that they await your detailed
criticism of this new version - which I think has passed all the needed
ISO hurdles. »<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>They
have never contacted me, for anything.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If
such a new version exists, I cannot criticize it. I cannot criticize what I do
not know.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If
they want anything from me, I’d be most happy to discuss. I’m available anytime,
always have been. They know how to reach me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Xavier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>De la part de</b> Ronal W.
Larson<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 28 janvier 2018 22:48<br>
<b>À :</b> Discussion of biomass; Philip Lloyd<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Stoves] A call to stop using the WBT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Philip: cc list<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>The new WBT
coming out of TC 285 is alive and well - and the Tier system as well. The
“grave” is not in sight.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ron<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 28, 2018, at 2:33 PM, <a
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Can we bury tiers in the same grave as the WBT?<br>
Philip<br>
<br>
Sent from my Huawei Mobile<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] A call to stop using the WBT<br>
From: "Ronal W. Larson" <br>
To: Xavier Brandao ,Discussion of biomass <br>
CC: <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Xavier:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Apologies
then. I had indeed assumed that you were in agreement with Crispin who
even today has written about how bad the WBT is - and who has been part of the
ongoing TC-285 work.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>You now know
my main interest in this dialog is protecting the Tier system - which is
dependent totally on the WBT coming out of TC285 discussions (which are almost
complete and endorsed by dozens of participants). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>How about
clarifying to GACC that your Jan 15 letter to GACC was NOT intended to impact
their decision on this new version - of which they are a key part? You
only need to say “<i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have no idea of what is happening at the WG2 nor the TC 285</span></i><i><span
style='font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>”</span></i><i><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>
). </span></i><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ll wager they will have misunderstood you as much as did I.
My guess is they will respond that they await your detailed
criticism of this new version - which I think has passed all the needed
ISO hurdles.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ron <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 28, 2018, at 4:43 AM, Xavier Brandao <<a
href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>Despite the best efforts of Xavier and Crispin to
discredit the almost approved WG2 methodology</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I never said anything about the WG2 methodology, simply because
I have no idea of what is happening at the WG2 nor the TC 285.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Xavier</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Stoves [<a
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>De la part de</b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Ronal W. Larson<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>dimanche 28
janvier 2018 00:00<br>
<b>À :</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Discussion of
biomass<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Stoves]
A call to stop using the WBT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>List cc Crispin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Being mentioned 3 times, but charcoal
and Tiers not being mentioned once, I respond below - with hopes that Crispin
can understand the way charcoal numbers should be used in computing a Tier
rating - which he (to repeat) he never specifically addresses (only alludes to).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 27, 2018, at 9:14 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"><span style='color:purple'>crispinpigott@outlook.com</span></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Andrew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Show me a cook who worries about the amount of energy released
from a solid fuel when cooking, and not the amount of fuel. Just one. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL1: I can agree that there
are probably only a few such cooks. But none is probably also
the number of real simple solid fuel cookstove users on this list. A
better question for both cooks and list members is: “Show me a cook or
list member who favors<span class=apple-converted-space><u> </u></span><u>inefficient</u><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>stoves. Just one”. The
Tier system can be viewed as one about inefficiencies.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>I start this with “inefficient”
because it is the main point in the rest of this response. We focus on
this list on e1 = (dimensionless) efficiency of heat transfer in the WBT and e2
= efficiency of making charcoal (roughly 1.7 times as energy important as
weight). We tend to ignore what is the most important if we want to
increase either/both e1 or e2, since inefficiency, i = 1- e1- e2. Now the
question that Crispin has trouble with is how should knowing e1 and e2 (and we
know both with remarkable precision through any of the WBT’s) give us the
e3 needed by the Tier system?. I say remarkable, because I would be
happy with 2 or 3% accuracy and repeatability - and the testers do
better than that. The e3 answer for Tier purposes is below. Crispin
has given no equations for the alternative e3 numbers he cites below - only
(inaccurate) assumptions of what I would say.<br>
<br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>After finding one, maybe it is Ron, ask if they want the actual
energy released, or a vague, misrepresentative number. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL2: Obviously rhetorical
- who can want “<i>a vague, misrepresentative number”? <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></i>But NO - I would not be happy with
only the “<i>actual energy released”. </i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>Despite the best efforts of Xavier and Crispin to
discredit the almost approved WG2 methodology, it seems virtually impossible
for there to not be a continuation (probably improved, maybe harder) of both an
approved WBT and some type of Tier structure. What I want is more
than “<i>actual energy released”. </i>I want the energy that could
have been released if e2 (= percent energy in the char) were zero. That
is what is the existing protocol calls for and that I am trying to protect and
justify below. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><i><br>
<br>
<br>
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The amazing things about the WBT are the incompetence with which
it was created and later, defended, and the effort put into not correcting it,
but preserving it as a monument to…what exactly?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL3: None of that sentence
is worth responding to.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ron doesn’t really want to preserve the WBT, he wants to rate
stoves that have a fuel efficiency of 20% to be reported to be 40%.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL4: It is useless for me
(the culprit) to ask for a cite for this claim on what “<i>he wants</i>”.
This is basically a statement that a Crispin doesn’t understand
how to use e2. The largest possible number I have ever seen for e2 is
0.4, but lets call it 0.5. In my experience, e2 is around .3. If
you use either of the equations I have been repeating this week - (and is
in the main WBT protocols and always has been) then e3 (the predicted
efficiency if the stove could produce no char) would be e3 = e1/(1-e2)
Eq. 1</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>and e3 = 1/(1+i/e1)
Eq. 2</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>To use the second form, we
need the inefficiency, </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>i = 1 - e1 - e2
Eq.3 </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>and for Crispin’s claim of what I believe: </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b> <span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>i =1-.2-.5 = .3
Eq.4 (for the “impossible” case) and </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>i = 1-.2-.3 = .5
Eq. 5 (for “my” version of Crispin’s case).</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>So if e2 is .5 (impossibly
high) we would get for the Tier number, using Eq 4</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b> e3 = 0.2/(1-.5)
= .4 Eq. 6 (using Eq 1), and </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>e3 = 1/(1+.3/.2) =
1/2.5 = .4. Eq. 7 (using Eq. 2)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>So we see that Crispin attributes to me a
40% efficiency (without explaining how he got there) that
is solely based on (the incorrect statement of) me claiming 50% efficiency
for char making - which I never have said and I have above said is not possible
- even if e1 were zero.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>For completeness, I
could/would not have stated that Crispin doesn’t understand the equation to be
used for Tiers if he had used my preferred example inefficiency number of I =
0.5. Then instead of e3 = 0.4, he should have stated that I would expect
(not “<i>want</i>”) a Tier rating of:</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>e3 = 1/(1+i/e1) =
1/(1+.5/.2) = 1/3.5 = .29 Eq, 8 (a LONG way
from his claim that I have been promoting 0.4)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That fuel efficiency metric will be used to calculate the
reduction in the harvesting of unsustainably harvested forests by improved
stoves accessing CDM funding.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL5: Another sentence that
is so illogical as to warrant another “no comment” as in [RWL3. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>However I have to say that
the figure e3 now used in the Tiers is much more logical than
this statement about his proposed “<i>fuel efficiency metric” (which
is NOT an e3)</i>. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>We should be thinking
both sustainably and unsustainably harvested forests. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>I see no reason
to suddenly bring “<i>CDM funding"</i><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>into this discussion</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>A stove that reduces fuel cutting by 1/2, Ron wants to be rated
as reducing it by 3/4. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL6: Hmm. How did
Crispin come up with 3/4 (even if one can figure out what he means by that BIG
reduction - meaning what is left must be 1-3/4-= 1/4). Before trying to
figure that out, I need to remind the list that when I first introduced a
char-making stove design in November, 1995 (on a predecessor of this list)
- there was no talk at all of biochar, only char . My intent solely
was to save forests from the roughly 15% efficiency of making char (often
illegally) in earth kilns.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>So my first interpretation
of this strange sentence was that “it” meant “fuel cutting” - but that has
already been defined as “1/2”.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>So starting with the first
clause - which says some unidentified stove <i>“reduces fuel cutting by
1/2”</i> - so maybe he means e1’ (the value after using the new
stove) is (e1)/2. (This still a guess, since Crispin feels no need for
symbols.)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>Then since the second
clause refers to RWL - and I have been (incorrectly) advertised as
believing in a doubling of e3 over e1 - I guess now that Crispin is saying here
that </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>3/4 = 1 - (1/2)*(1/2).
Eq. 9 - </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b> I don’ t know what set
of symbols to give - so will ask Crispin to tell us what might refer to my
symbols e1, e2, e3, and i )</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b> This is indeed an identity. But I don’t want
to be identified as recommending either “1/2” term - nor the equation that
produces the “3/4” either.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>[RWL7:<span
class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Let me try to generate an RWL number
equivalent to Crispin’s “3/4”. A pretty reasonable example is where </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>e1 = e2 = i = 1/3,
Eq 10 (assumption</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>then </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>e3 = 1/2
Eq.11 (Readers - please check my e3, using both
above two equations Eq. 1 and Eq. 2). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b> Note that this (overall) Tier efficiency e3 (when
the stove produces no char) was decreased to 1/2 from the e1 +e2
value of 2/3. My e3 of 1/2 is not the claimed doubling that Crispin
claims (“claims” because he shows us no equations - only results).</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>So the WG2 e3 value of 1/2
(if we ignore everything about char-making) is larger by 1/6 than the e1 value
of 1/3. So the absolute largest % increase that I could be charged
with (still ignoring the forest benefit of making char in a stove) is in
the ratio (1/6)/(1/2)= 1/3 or (1/6)/(1/3) = 1/2 - depending on what you
want use in the denominator. A non char-making stove requires 1/3 less
cutting if one throws away the char (which Crispin apparently feels is likely).
So Crispin’s 3/4 is obtained only with hand waving and illogical and
inaccurate assumptions </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>[RWL 8: We should also
discuss why e3 should be this half-way value between e1=1/3 and the e1+e2
value of 2/3. Why should the stove without char-making not have
an efficiency of the full 2/3? (Besides the fact that NO small
stove ever gets an e1 that high.) My belief is that it is in the way
hydrogen is consumed in the char-making stove. The pyrolysis process is
such that the produced char has a much smaller % H2 than any form
of “raw” biomass. (And users of the char in soil want it that way.)
So the pyrolysis process is providential - we get what both e1 and e2
need to be. Stated another way, e2 has a higher energy content (about 30
MJ/kg) than the input biomass (about 18 MJ/kg). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>[RWL9: It might help
to say a bit more using weights, assuming 1 kg of input with an initial energy
of 18 MJ. If e2 is still 1/3 , then the char must have 6 MJ. An
assumed energy density of 30 MJ/kg, means the char must weigh 6/30 = .2 kg.
The energy density of the gases going into e1 and i must then be
(18-6)/.8 = 15 MJ/kg. Everything balances as we move to find the critical
e3 (needed for the Tier computation). The making of char gave up
hydrogen to get e1 as high as it was (1/3). When we assume no (char-made)
e2 (which was 1/3), then e3 can only jump (by 1/6) from 1/3 to 1/2. There
was little H2 impact to give up as e2 went to zero in finding e3.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>(Note - the actual energy
densities in real WG2 reporting are different from these assumed values. But
not much different - and the existing WBT instructions are good on
how these are to be obtained (unlike some of the
competing stove testing approaches.)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Do you, Andrew, think that making such a misrepresentation of
consumption would be mischievous, or fair, to the funder of the avoidance
unsustainable deforestation?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>[RWL10: A final
rhetorical sentence also not needing comment, once one agrees there has been
zero misrepresentation. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b> <span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>But I write the above for others - not
Crispin, whose opinion I expect to remain unchanged by any of the above (I hope
of course I am wrong - but I have tried to say most of this before).</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span><b> </b></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><b> </b></span><b>I’ll not similarly ask
Andrew - but do wonder how he will answer Crispin - with its
mischaracterization of my values and methodology? </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>Apologies for length here - obviously, I am trying to
influence discussions at ETHOS.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>Ron</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Crispin </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 26 January 2018 at 10:51, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:
purple'>crispinpigott@outlook.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Anh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Other than reporting the energy in the char and it's mass, what
else should be reported?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The only thing that is needed is how much energy was released
to do the task, establishing it is a bit troublesome as each species is
different and moisture contents vary. With other fuels it's simple, we can
weigh a LPG cylinder before and after use and deduct one from the other to
establish the fuel used.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have never been asked how much energy a stove uses out of the
fuel it consumes during the replication of some task. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So the energy use isn't much relevant to the cook?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>People always ask how much fuel a stove needs to 'do
something'.Misrepresenting the fuel needed from the available resource to
complete a task is mischievous. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We should not introduce mischief to our performance
evaluations. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Stop being mischievous then ;-)<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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