<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Paul and List:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I just lost 3-4 hours of work defending the concept of TLODs and Nat’s work. I had at least 6 websites, something on this list from about 2010 on the Everything Nice stove (partly from me), a patent issued to Nat, and comments on many of your statements below. I am too discouraged to redo it tonight.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The main messages were two: </div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a. Not enough attention is being placed on hole placements</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b. The word “Venturi” is key.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 24, 2018, at 9:48 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
Ron,<br class="">
<br class="">
I disagree with your comments.<br class="">
<br class="">
You always speak of Nat Mulcahy's work as if it is still going on.
I have not heard of anyone having contact wity him or having his
stoves since 2010. If Nat makes comments, he will certainly be
heard at this Stoves Listserv.<br class="">
<br class="">
Second, note that Nat has used the name Lucia stove for BOTH his
natural draft units (Everything Nice, claimed to NOT be a TLUD but
disputed in the past few days by McLaughlin, English, Harris, others
including me) and his forced air units that are excellent fan-jet
(high turbulence) stoves that do not make char. I was at that
ETHOS meeting, spoke with Nat, and saw his stoves in operation.
They are not on the market. <br class="">
<br class="">
It is a past topic unless someone (Nat?) has fresh info.<br class="">
<br class="">
Is anyone able to find Heath Putnam? I would love to discuss his
experiments with him.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2018 6:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:65D3BBD0-2294-48B9-A6BE-C183BD409D05@comcast.net" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<div class="">Paul and list:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
don’t think there is any conflict that traditional TLUDs do not
experience down draft. But the Putnam experiments have been
trying to explore what Nat Mulcahy has patented and been selling
for about a decade. (I met Nat at the 2008 Biochar conference
in Newcastle UK.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This
week’s list messages is the only negative dialog I remember
since the 2009 ETHOS meeting where Nat explained his work. I
wasn’t there, and I know some didn’t believe it going in, but I
thought he had convinced everyone. Can we hear from others who
were there? I am questioning the word “consensus” below.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
doubt that any of those with negative reactions to Nat’s work
have had a chance to play with the Lucia’s. I have - for at
least 3-4 hours in his lab in Italy - on maybe 3 different
models both powered and natural draft. Anyone who has been
saying that the Lucia is a TLUD had that experience? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
assert that Nat has not been fooling people, so here is a
guarantee for a beer to anyone who can prove via a test that
either the Lucia or the new work is simply another TLUD. I
assert it is should be easy with simple tests to prove that Nat
<b class=""><u class="">IS</u></b> exploiting the Bernoulli
principal. My Googling has shown there are plenty of practical
applications of one airflow to create a low pressure area in
another area. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I’ll
keep working on this. I need help with the mathematics of the
Bernoulli equation for some specific stove geometry. I’m
looking for an ME who has been teaching the Bernoulli equation
in the classroom (and better a lab).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
have never seen a plot of pressure in the TLUD design that made
sense. Anyone able to send me one that is backed up by an
experiment? Temperature, charcoal amounts, pyrolysis gases,
and power levels are easy. Not looking for these. Pressure
differences are tiny. There might be some ways to measure
velocities and densities, but haven’t seen those either. All
these needed for the Bernoulli equation.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 24, 2018, at 4:18 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""> Alex and
all,<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you all for your comments. There was some
discussion about this "downdraft in updraft" a few years
ago, with a consensus of no downdraft occuring. It is
only because of the Heath Putnam videos that the topic has
returned. <br class="">
<br class="">
The discussion these last few days has been interesting.
Some comments / hypotheses have been given. Some
suggestions of how additonal tests could be run have been
made. But nobody has replicated the Putnam experiments
or tried some new test. I hope that this will eventually
be done, recorded on video, and posted for all of us to
see. <br class="">
<br class="">
Until then, that little bit of doubt still lingers.
Something scientific has not yet been fully tested. This
IS the frontier of cookstove technology.<br class="">
<br class="">
This topic supports my contention that there is still much
to learn about TLUD technology and micro-gasification in
general. TLUD stoves and micro-gasifiers will contnue to
get better as the world eventually recognizes that they
are burning gases (made inside the devices), not directly
burning solid fuels. And they are not like the old
"stick burners" that keep hanging around and are promoted
to impoverished people although stick burners and charcoal
burners will never resolve the world's cookstove problems.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2018 12:11 PM, alex
english wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CA+6hwOpp7vk3sDP6GAVPDi2=oE2B4_B=3NxJpVwqDTLh93fWBw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Paul,</div>
<div class="">Lacking anything like data backed proof
of down-drafting in these little stoves without
fans. I say no way.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Buoyancy in chimneys and stoves is often visualized as
something like gasses, being sucked up. It is really
gasses being pushed up by heavier gasses being sucked
down by by gravity more like water seeking it own
level and forcing air above it. Inside a top lit stove
of pellets the air in the bottom is cold and heavy. It
is pushed up to replace the lighter hot gasses above.
Edge of container effects may cause small eddies. If
it is cooler than the hot middle then a bit of down
movement but not much. As the container heats up it
may be hotter than the cool pellets in the middle.
Then there would be a little movement up near the
edge. The end result in a TLUD is a fire or front
(MPF) that in fact seeks its own level.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have operated Paul brand TLUD in a
painted cylinder filled with pellets so slowly that
the pellets at the edge were torrified and the rest
were charred and the paint was still good. I have
operated pellets at 18 inches in diameter , 40
inches deep for up to a continuous burn of 12 hours.
I have also operated continuous down drafters for
days but needed a hot 10 feet of chimney to over
come buoyancy in a two inch diameter burner. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There's no pressure gradient to drive
this fantasy in the real world.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ah there's Hugh now....driving his own
spike.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Done</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Alex</div>
</div>
<br class="">
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