<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Gordon,<br>
<br>
Yes, that is the concept being discussed. The explanaiton by World
Stove is in question. The Heath Putnam videos are more realistic
than drawings, and his lower holes are at the bottom, not at the
sise. I have suggested the impact lower pressure caused by only
one supply of both primary and secondary air (comingled air
supply). <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/28/2018 9:51 AM, Gordon West
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5A4984C2-D1AB-4CB2-9669-B80EAD343432@rtnewmexico.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
Is this the downdraft stove concept being discussed? (From the
World Stove website)
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><img class="aligncenter size-full
wp-image-287" alt="stove-img10_03"
apple-inline="yes"
id="E267CD24-3D65-4CAD-8722-AF89C7DFC326"
src="cid:part1.A743EA87.8381B95E@ilstu.edu"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
In this depiction, I do not understand how the feedstock that
is below the “gas” holes would ever pyrolyze, whether updraft
of downdraft, since no air would be passing through it.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Gordon <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 21, 2018, at 10:05 PM, Ronal W. Larson
<<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Paul, list, and cc (this also responding to
Kirk Harris)<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>
I should have added the names: Nat Mulcahey, Lucia,
and World Stove. Nat’s stove looks identical to a TLUD,
but clearly operates with hot N2 and CO2 (no oxygen)
traveling downward through the fuel bed. Well discussed
I think at the 2009 ETHOS conference and elsewhere. Nat
says that it is the lack of red glowing embers near the
top that shows there is downdraft.<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The
low pressure at the bottom is caused by
Bernoulli-Venturi principles in the stove design that
Nat has patented (and talks about). I have
periodically tried to find equations to understand this
effect, but never had a need to get deeply into it. I
know that Nat understands those equations perfectly (I
visited Nat’s facilities in Italy, operated with and
without a fan, and am sure he does NOT operate a TLUD).
Amazing to me that this effect can cause such a
downdraft. Totally non-intuitive.<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I’ll
look up an exact cite, but found one video that says the
experimenter (not Nat) had to increase the height
location of the secondary air inlets to maximize the
“vacuum” effect (lowered pressure below the fuel). That
geometry is not common in TLUDs. It is also very
different from Nat’s apparatus (which has "complicated”
aluminum castings), which he “tunes” for different
fuels).<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It
is interesting to ponder whether Nat’s patent would
cover this quite different (and simpler) geometry.
Maybe it has been done by others, but Nat can control
the power level, and the simple (Facebook) tests I saw
were not (but probably could). Nat has other stove
features that possibly would not have him worry about
this apparently similar “)TLODD” behavior (Although
“ODD" has meaning, it probably implies a curiosity
aspect that is not deserved. I want to take that name
back.)<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Why
would anyone want to further explore this “downdraft”
effect? Besides Nat getting a very clean flame, that I
now presume could also be achieved with tin cans with
the new secondary air hole placement, I’m guessing that
this system could be optimized to give a pre-mixed
flame. That would give shorter flames. Possibly can
have shorter stoves that can be filled closer to the
top.<br class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Measuring
the temperature below the fuel bed will tell a lot.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thoughts?<br
class="">
<br class="">
Ron<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Mar 21, 2018, at
10:59 AM, Paul Anderson <<a
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Ron and all,<br class="">
<br class="">
I will send a full response very soon. Believe me,
the explaation does not justify a new category of
micro-gasifier technology, but is only TLUD done
poorly.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br
class="">
<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Email: psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br
class="">
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br
class="">
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
On 3/21/2018 9:25 AM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:<br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Paul and ccs<br
class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
believe the downward movement description is OK.
Not a TLUD, of course, despite its looks.<br
class="">
I’m at a conference and will say more later.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
know you don’t like the term TLOD, where “O” stands
for opposite. How about TLODD (for Top Lit Opposite
Down Draft) - since the issue now is “down”?<br
class="">
<br class="">
Ron<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Mar 18, 2018, at
3:32 PM, Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Stovers,<br class="">
<br class="">
I stumbled onto this video by accident. He is
instructing (64,000 views) that the air in the
fuel chamber of a woodgas stove (same drawings as
for a TLUD) are moving DOWNWARD.<br class="">
<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FepZPaxgB3o">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FepZPaxgB3o</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Totally bogus.<br class="">
<br class="">
I would not even mention it to the Stoves Listserv
except to express my disgust and to point how what
is creeping into information flows about stoves.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Might be a nice challenge for students to try to
PROVE the direction of the air flows in TLUD
stoves. Such as an increase in temperature in
the bottom few cm of the fuel if the hot gases
were pulled downward. Of detecting combustible
gases in the gap between the fuel cylinder and the
outer cylinder.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br
class="">
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br class="">
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br
class="">
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use
the web page<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the
web page<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the
web page<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
see our web site:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br
class="">
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information
see our web site:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>