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Ron,<br>
<br>
You treat the past as if it were the present.
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b
class="">RWL1: Thanks to Crispin for his additional support
that World Stove is alive and well. </b></blockquote>
Crispin said nothing about the present. His was a prior
observation. NO news about the state of World Stove.
<blockquote type="cite"><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>a)
On the one hand, Nat has a patent -.........</b></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>b)
I admire Nat’s work, and know he has invested a lot of time and
money in its development. </b></blockquote>
The word "has" can refer to things done earlier and still
acknowledged as having occured. But "has invested" is not the same
as "is investing." There is ZERO evidence of Nat's continuing to
work on his devices. I hope that he is doing so, but the silence
for 5 or 8 years is total. Only you (Ron) keep making it sound as
if World Stove is still active or if Nat is still active with
stoves.
<blockquote type="cite"><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>e).
Maybe Nat can authorize (with royalties) other manufacture and
use of what he is selling.</b></blockquote>
The word "is" is not appropriate without evidence of some (any?)
selling actually occuring or even being attempted.<br>
<br>
Thank you for bringing up a previous message from me, even though
you and I disagree about this topic. I totally continue to
maintain what I wrote in that cited message. Tryner's work was
seriously flawed in the section where re-loading of TLUD stoves was
examined. Neither she nor her supervisors were aware of actual TLUD
stove usage. They just experimented with a substantial amount of
additional fuel and found problems, and the "second phase" was
without any MPF (migratory pyrolytic front). How many people (in
addition to you) have been misled by that part of that research?
It is better if it is ignored that to have that approach be studied
and propogated.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL3: I agree on being able to add fuel with Nat’s
TLODs.</b> (Some Mulcahy videos show this.) <b class=""> But
so can any TLUD. The doctoral thesis by Jessica Tryner covers
this topic as expressed (with unhappiness) by Paul Anderson
at:</b></div>
<div class=""><a
href="http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/"
class="">http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/</a></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
And nobody has found Heath Putnam yet? He has valuable inputs if
we can find him.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/31/2018 8:17 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AC999891-904D-4934-AA4D-42A91E56FD73@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="">List and Crispin and Gordon: cc Paul, Kirk and
Andrew (in this thread)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See
inserts below.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span
class="">Dear Gordon</span><span class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The World
Stove works very well. When it was discussed here some
years ago, I mentioned that it appeared to be a new type
of stove. I agree that how it works is not obvious,
however I can assure you it does and that many thousands
of them have been sold.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">RWL1: Thanks to Crispin for his additional support
that World Stove is alive and well. </b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree with Crispin that it is by no means obvious with how the
TLOD works. But I suggest that there is now not much reason
to doubt what Nat has claimed in his successful patent. The
patent is at: </b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><a
href="https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110209698"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110209698</a>.
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""> Look especially at patent figure item
#50 in part #19 for what I consider the main new (Venturi)
feature that is not a part of any TLUD.</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There are
elements of the design missing from that drawing.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL2: Agreed. The simple figure given by Gordon
is only vaguely similar to the many figures in the patent.
I am intentionally not re-inserting the figure introduced
by Gordon.</b></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A significant
aspect of the design is that it can be refueled cleanly
while running, separating it from most TLUD’s,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL3: I agree on being able to add fuel with
Nat’s TLODs.</b> (Some Mulcahy videos show this.) <b
class=""> But so can any TLUD. The doctoral thesis by
Jessica Tryner covers this topic as expressed (with
unhappiness) by Paul Anderson at:</b></div>
<div class=""><a
href="http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">which leads one to </b></div>
<div class=""><a
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/resources/517.html"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://cleancookstoves.org/resources/517.html</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">where there are multiple cites to Dr.
Tryner’s work. This (otherwise very nice) stove overview
document has nothing on TLODs and World Stove.</b></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> at least
until there is a significant accumulation of ash at the
bottom.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL4: Disagree again. Essentially no ash. A
main beauty of the TLOD is that it is virtually impossible to
burn up the produced char (unlike all TLUDs). This is
mentioned briefly in the above patent. Nat makes a major
emphasis on using the produced char as biochar.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-weight: bold; white-space: pre;"> </span><b
class="">[RWL5: New topic: How much new and additional
effort by this list should go into comparing TLUDs and TLODs?</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a)
On the one hand, Nat has a patent - and this has presumably
caused little work by others. I am not advocating anyone
trying to duplicate Nat’s work and ignore the patent.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b)
I admire Nat’s work, and know he has invested a lot of time
and money in its development. I don’t want to cause him any
new patent defense difficulties. Actually I am impressed by
the work of hundreds in improving and modifying TLUDs. Is
this perhaps because there are no patent issues (that I am
aware of).</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>c)
On the other hand, his work is only poorly known and
acknowledged. It seems logical that because he has a 10 year
head start on everyone else, any TLOD discussion should
generally help World Stove. And Nat has an existing
manufacturing approach designed to minimize costs that will be
hard to beat. Besides the above two issues of adding fuel and
avoiding char production, the stove is obviously very clean
(but no detailed report I am aware of) and seems to have all
the advantages of a TLUD (time saving, income generating, etc)</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>d)
(Getting agreement today to bring up this topic from Kirk
Harris), I hereby apologize to Nat if I am making the wrong
choice in encouraging others to see if they can (while
necessarily acknowledging the above patent) strive for
modifications that might convince the patent office that
another TLOD type patent is justifiable. I am pretty sure
that one can’t patent use of the (several hundred year-old)
Venturi principle. (Nor do I see that Nat has made that
claim).</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e).
Maybe Nat can authorize (with royalties) other manufacture
and use of what he is selling.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 28
March 2018 at 15:51, Gordon West <<a
href="mailto:gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid;
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;
margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">Is this the downdraft stove concept
being discussed? (From the World Stove website)<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span
style="" class=""><span
id="cid:image001.jpg@01D3C733.CA95A2A0"><image001.jpg></span></span><span
style="" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">In this depiction, I
do not understand how the feedstock that is
below the “gas” holes would ever pyrolyze,
whether updraft of downdraft, since no air
would be passing through it.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color:
rgb(136, 136, 136);" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">Good find Gordon, I had heard Nat
talking over the table about this but never seen a
schematic, I'm tending toward being sceptical.<o:p
class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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