<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Just a couple of comments about possible dynamics that aren’t being considered, or that are difficult to observe and document. First, I acknowledge that the diagram posted from the World Stoves website was probably not a completely accurate representation of all the features of the device, so we can disregard any assumptions about it.<div><br></div><div>In discussing pyrolysis in a TLUD with my colleague Bill Knauss, he believes that the airflow may not be a linear updraft through the feedstock and that there may be internal circular flows and eddies. One cause for this is that the gasification of volatiles is dramatically expanding the gas volume well beyond the combustion air input, creating a much higher gas pressure, which could cause localized “downdraft” at the mpf. In any case, the expanded gas volume has to get out somehow, potentially even through holes assumed to be venturis. During experiments we did in capturing syngas from a large TLUD (made from a vertical 500 gallon propane tank), we calculated that there was a 4:1 expansion of syngas volume over the combustion air volume. That increase in volume and pressure has to go somewhere.</div><div><br></div><div>Another possible effect to be considered is that the “flame cap” at the top of the pyrolysis cylinder would consume all of the O2 from any air being drawn down from the top, which means it would not be supporting a downdraft pyrolysis reaction. I am not visualizing where the O2 would come from, except from the bottom as an updraft.</div><div><br></div><div>I hope this is useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Gordon</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br>On Mar 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><div class="">List and Crispin and Gordon: cc Paul, Kirk and Andrew (in this thread)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Dear Gordon</span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The World Stove works very well. When it was discussed here some years ago, I mentioned that it appeared to be a new type of stove. I agree that how it works is not obvious, however I can assure you it does and that many thousands of them have been sold.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">RWL1: Thanks to Crispin for his additional support that World Stove is alive and well. </b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I agree with Crispin that it is by no means obvious with how the TLOD works. But I suggest that there is now not much reason to doubt what Nat has claimed in his successful patent. The patent is at: </b></div><div class=""><b class=""><a href="https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110209698" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>https://patents.google.com/patent/US20110209698</a>. </b></div><div class=""><b class=""> Look especially at patent figure item #50 in part #19 for what I consider the main new (Venturi) feature that is not a part of any TLUD.</b></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There are elements of the design missing from that drawing.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: Agreed. The simple figure given by Gordon is only vaguely similar to the many figures in the patent. I am intentionally not re-inserting the figure introduced by Gordon.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A significant aspect of the design is that it can be refueled cleanly while running, separating it from most TLUD’s,</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: I agree on being able to add fuel with Nat’s TLODs.</b> (Some Mulcahy videos show this.) <b class=""> But so can any TLUD. The doctoral thesis by Jessica Tryner covers this topic as expressed (with unhappiness) by Paul Anderson at:</b></div><div class=""><a href="http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/" class="">http://www.drtlud.com/epost/re-stoves-new-handbook-for-biomass-cookstove-research-design-and-development/</a></div><div class=""><b class="">which leads one to </b></div><div class=""><a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/resources/517.html" class="">http://cleancookstoves.org/resources/517.html</a></div><div class=""><b class="">where there are multiple cites to Dr. Tryner’s work. This (otherwise very nice) stove overview document has nothing on TLODs and World Stove.</b></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> at least until there is a significant accumulation of ash at the bottom.</div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: Disagree again. Essentially no ash. A main beauty of the TLOD is that it is virtually impossible to burn up the produced char (unlike all TLUDs). This is mentioned briefly in the above patent. Nat makes a major emphasis on using the produced char as biochar.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-weight: bold; white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: New topic: How much new and additional effort by this list should go into comparing TLUDs and TLODs?</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a) On the one hand, Nat has a patent - and this has presumably caused little work by others. I am not advocating anyone trying to duplicate Nat’s work and ignore the patent.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b) I admire Nat’s work, and know he has invested a lot of time and money in its development. I don’t want to cause him any new patent defense difficulties. Actually I am impressed by the work of hundreds in improving and modifying TLUDs. Is this perhaps because there are no patent issues (that I am aware of).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>c) On the other hand, his work is only poorly known and acknowledged. It seems logical that because he has a 10 year head start on everyone else, any TLOD discussion should generally help World Stove. And Nat has an existing manufacturing approach designed to minimize costs that will be hard to beat. Besides the above two issues of adding fuel and avoiding char production, the stove is obviously very clean (but no detailed report I am aware of) and seems to have all the advantages of a TLUD (time saving, income generating, etc)</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>d) (Getting agreement today to bring up this topic from Kirk Harris), I hereby apologize to Nat if I am making the wrong choice in encouraging others to see if they can (while necessarily acknowledging the above patent) strive for modifications that might convince the patent office that another TLOD type patent is justifiable. I am pretty sure that one can’t patent use of the (several hundred year-old) Venturi principle. (Nor do I see that Nat has made that claim).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e). Maybe Nat can authorize (with royalties) other manufacture and use of what he is selling.</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 28 March 2018 at 15:51, Gordon West <<a href="mailto:gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Is this the downdraft stove concept being discussed? (From the World Stove website)<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""><span id="cid:image001.jpg@01D3C733.CA95A2A0"><image001.jpg></span></span><span style="" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In this depiction, I do not understand how the feedstock that is below the “gas” holes would ever pyrolyze, whether updraft of downdraft, since no air would be passing through it.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Good find Gordon, I had heard Nat talking over the table about this but never seen a schematic, I'm tending toward being sceptical.<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Stoves mailing list</span><br class=""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>