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Dear all, (The Subject line is by Kelpie)<br>
<br>
Kelpie(message below) has some interesting thoughts about what is
happening in the down-sucking stoves (if that is what is
happening). <br>
<br>
I make three comments:<br>
<br>
1. It is intreguing to get this figured out. Still too many
questions, lots of speculations about pressures and venturies, and
too few reported experimental results, and zero independent
replications of experiments<br>
<br>
2. How to utilize any of this info for the beter making of
char/biochar AND/OR for better stoves. One starting point would be
to see details of the 6 designs of World Stoves.<br>
<br>
3. Does hot elemental N2 passing downward through hot char have
what result? Doe any of the N (as N or N2 or any N molecules)
stay with the char? And would that capture of any N in any form be
an improvement for the plants? Note: In a true TLUD operation,
above the MPF (pyrolytic front) there is hot char that is exposed to
upward-rising hot N2. That is a fact. And during more than 30
years of known existence and experimentation with TLUD processes,
there is no discussion (of which I am awae) of any of the N2 having
stayed with the hot char or having benefits for plants. If Nat is
makingthat for the downward moving N2, we would like to see the
evidence.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/2/2018 9:19 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8D164F74-A729-4BBD-B671-1FF07A8FB48A@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="">Kelpie et al</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In
later pondering, I realized one doesn’t need a double wall -
just an upper horizontal “pipe with inward jets” that injects
the mixed flammable gasses out over the “piled” wood.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If
feasible, it should work with a trench as well as metal walls.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 2, 2018, at 12:04 AM, Kelpie Wilson <<a
href="mailto:kelpiew@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">kelpiew@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Oh yeah, Ron, I am already
thinking along those lines. Something like a mashup
between the Biochar Now afterburner-modified FAO kilns,
the double walled Ring of Fire Kiln and the Everything
Nice stove. Got some development funding in mind too.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Kelpie</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="">On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 10:55 PM Ronal W.
Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Kelpie and
list; Adding Nat Mulcahy
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1.
Re your last sentence, my reading on Venturis<span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>says
that big pressure differences can be generated.
The word “vacuum” means something here.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2.
This may be really off-the-wall, but I can
(vaguely) see adapting the “TLOD” actions of World
Stove to really large Kon-Tiki type systems.
Couldn’t be exactly like Nat’s but I can imagine a
double walled “Kon-Tiki” with a floor that has
“holey” pipes, with a fan/blower system (might
want more than one) a ways off that draws hot
gases out of these “holey floor pipes” and then
re-injects the hot gases now mixed with air back
into the double wall kon tiki- to give
controllable flames </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3.
Advantages (possibly):</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>a.
The kon tiki could be preloaded - perhaps right to
the top (as is the Lucia and others)</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>b.
There could be an optimum amount of added air -
for premixing, but still able to form an oxygen -
rejecting flame cap.</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>c.
The hot N2 drawn down would create char.</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>d.
There would never be glowing embers. The fire
would self extinguish when all the wood has been
converted to char.(I think this is the biggest
possible advantage)</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>e.
You could add extra wood if desired at any time.</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>f.
The duration and size of the flame could be
controlled by the fan(s) speed(s).</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>g.
The energy for the fan should be relatively small,
and there are technologies to generate the needed
fan power from the flame (for remote areas).</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>h.
These probably better long and “narrow”</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>i.
Could be totally separate fans for the added air,
or a Venturi effect might work here as well.</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>j.
A way-out possibility is that it could all work
natural draft.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div class=""><span class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 1, 2018, at 5:58 PM,
Kelpie Wilson <<a
href="mailto:kelpiew@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">kelpiew@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_7894874380645392074Apple-interchange-newline">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi friends,
<div class="">sorry but I get the email
digest and cannot figure out how to
reply to a subject thread, so I'll just
start a new one.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is so interesting! I
just got back from a workshop tour of
Nebraska and Kansas, teaching flame cap
pyrolysis for making biochar from
invasive eastern red cedar. This use of
waste biomass for biochar has been my
focus in recent years, rather than
stoves or TLUDs. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So many times, I have seen
flames from these kilns flowing upward
and then turning back down. The flame
tips have a downward hook at the top as
something sucks the the air back down.
These are Down Suckers, thank you Paul
for that term!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You can see a nice example
of this pictured in my slides here: </div>
<div class=""><a
href="https://www.slideshare.net/kelpiew/flame-carbonizers-for-biochar-in-practice-and-theory"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.slideshare.net/kelpiew/flame-carbonizers-for-biochar-in-practice-and-theory</a><br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Of course these flame cap
kilns have no bottom air, but in the
beginning stages of a burn, the air does
flow down the sides and up the center of
the fuel stack so they do operate in an
updraft mode of sorts. So some of it is
the air flow down the sides that is
sucking the air from above and causing
the flame tips to hook downward.
However, in the later stages of the
burn, we have completely filled in the
kiln with hot glowing coals and air
still comes from the top because the
combustion must create a negative
pressure to pull air in from the top.
Which of these down-sucking affects
might be taking place in a small stove?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I also have to agree with
Gordon, and with Bill Knauss, that there
must be positive pressure from the wood
gas as heat forces the volatiles out of
the wood. That would be how the
Everything Nice/World Stove works. Heat
from the flame on top volatilizes gas
down inside the stove. Pressurized gas
flows up to the top of the fuel bed,
feeding the flame, but some flows out
through the side holes, gaining speed as
it passes through the venturis, creating
more negative pressure to draw more gas.
In the annular space it pre-mixes with
secondary air for better combustion.
This pre-mixed gas then merges with the
flame on top.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is not all about draft
and buoyancy. Gas flows also occur from
volatilization and oxidation. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So the World Stove is
definitely not a down-draft gasifier,
but it is more than a TLUD. In fact, I
have felt for awhile that a flame cap
kiln is more like a retort than
anything, since it is closed on the
bottom. The flame itself closes the
retort and acts as heat exchanger at the
same time. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The World Stove just acts
like a self-heating retort with a flame
cap, as pressurized syngas leaves and
recirculates to the flame. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I agree that I would really
like to see someone evaluate Nat's
claims about N-enriched char from his
stove. That would be proof that
down-sucking gas actually moves from the
top through the fuel like a sweep gas.
Not too sure that could actually happen.
The venturi effect would have to be very
strong.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kelpie</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
-- <br class="">
<div
class="m_7894874380645392074gmail_signature">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><i
class="">Ms.Kelpie
Wilson<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.wilsonbiochar.com/"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Wilson
Biochar
Associates</a></i></div>
<div class="">Email: <a
href="mailto:kelpiew@gmail.com" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">kelpiew@gmail.com</a><br
class="">
Oregon home office:
541-592-3083<br
class="">
Mobile: 541-218-9890<br
class="">
Skype: kelpie.wilson</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><i class="">Ms.Kelpie
Wilson<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.wilsonbiochar.com/"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Wilson
Biochar Associates</a></i></div>
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