<div dir="ltr">Kirk,<div>This is an easy set up for freezing the <span class="" id=":2vz.1" tabindex="-1" style="">MPF</span>. Just add water. It produced mostly char just like most <span class="" id=":2vz.2" tabindex="-1" style="">TLUDs</span> . It is not an open fire because when I pull out the strainer, into the open, it immediately looses flame. Yes there is some char combustion around the edges, just enough to add a pilot to flame stability. There is a spectrum from ideological and scientific purity to </div><div>technical and cost simplicity. I like to play at the extremes:)</div><div><br></div><div>Alex</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:18 AM, Kirk H. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank">gkharris316@<span class="" id=":2vz.4" tabindex="-1" style="">comcast</span>.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="#954F72"><div class="m_3907668335374762704WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Alex,</p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">This is a pot with some kind of open-burning stove inside it. The air is entering the pot at the top but can enter the stove at the bottom or sides. I question if this stove is a TLUD. If it has a MPF and the gasses are being burned separately in a secondary flame with air supplied by the side holes, than it may be operating as a TLUD. There are no gas flames at the top of the stove where the wood gas would mix with air coming over the top, as a TLUD would usually operate. The flames are burning before they exit the chamber so my guess is that it is an open fire.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I did some experiments on turn-down several years ago, directing some air downward in the reactor chamber. It turned inward when it reached the top of the char and burned the wood gas as it rose out of the char, giving excellent turn-down. I did not see it penetrate below the surface of the char let alone the MPF. Also as the char level dropped during the burn, the air had to travel further downward to reach the surface. It was heated by the fire as it descended and became buoyant, turning inward before reaching the char, so the flame was separate above the char. It did still worked for turn-down. Hypothetical primary air entering from above would probably do the same, heat as it descended, become buoyant, and not reach the top of the char.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Kirk H.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" target="_blank">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:aenglish444@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex english</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, June 17, 2018 2:24 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Down with Fantasy-draft stoves</p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Stovies,</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This relates to Paul's doubts that all the air can come in the top of a TLUD.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I took two off the shelf items and with no alterations and made a serviceable stove for wood pellet fuel . I placed a stainless holey cutlery strainer on a shim in the bottom of a small stainless milk pail. The strainer is 4 5/8 inches in diameter and 5 inches tall. The top was about 3/4 of an inch below the top of the pail. Half filled with pellets, which leaves the pellets 3.5 inches the below the pot. Top lit, it burned for about 45 minutes with all the air coming in from the top. The migrating front headed 'south' predictably. A little ash formed around the edges. Good flame stability.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">It is basically a one speed device unless you manipulate the fuel profile. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The pot position, size and shape is a factor as the exhaust and air pass by each other in close proximity going in opposite directions.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">A pretty simple stove. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Alex </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 8:39 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.6pt">Alex (and others)<br><br>You wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:19.2pt">That primary air can be introduced above the fuel with the secondary air<br>and drop down and spread out below the<br>pyrolysis front.</p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.6pt"> I would certainly like to see this demonstrated (visible) or supported by scientific measurements. Frankly, I have my doubts, especially if it is less than 20 cm (8 inches) in diameter..<br><br>Paul<br><br>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br><br>On 3/29/2018 5:40 AM, Andrew Heggie wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:19.2pt">On 29 March 2018 at 01:32, alex english <<a href="mailto:aenglish444@gmail.com" target="_blank">aenglish444@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.4in">Andrew,<br>If you are curious you can 'freeze' theTLUD process at any point by setting<br>the a TLUD in a pan of water that shuts off the air and wicks water into the<br>raw pellets in the bottom of the fuel chamber. They will swell and wick all<br>the way up to the Migrating Pyrolysis Front . The Torrefied layer and the<br>char above will not swell. A careful excavation of the fuel will reveal all.<br>When I did this with the 18 inch diameter chamber I found a horizontal<br>layer of an inch, or a bit less, of pellets in transition from raw pellet<br>to torrified pellet to charred pellet.</p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:19.2pt">Thanks again Alex it's an interesting experiment but I'm quite happy<br>to take your word for the horizontal MPF.<br><br><br><br> Misting the outside of the stove</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.4in">will can also give clear impression of a planar descent of the MPF.</p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:19.2pt">I never did much with pellets as I felt they were not a likely fuel<br>compared with stickwood and so not representative of most users In UK<br>I find them too expensive compared with other fuels.</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.4in">With very dry fuel like wood pellet very little primary air is required.<br>That primary air can be introduced above the fuel with the secondary air<br>and drop down and spread out below the<br>pyrolysis front. If introduced tangentially the cooler fresh air<br>centrifuges to the outside edge of a round chamber and the flame tornados up<br>the middle. A layer of fresh air one millimeter thick descending around the<br>edge of a fuel chamber would be enough. Not a lot of control but this<br>resembles what many people have used this sort in other contexts. With<br>fussy fuel quality and placement it behaves in the steady top down way that<br>a TLUD does with a little extra char burning.</p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:19.2pt">Yes I made many such vortex burners in my experiments, the largest<br>being 4foot diameter but I supplied all the air from above and<br>inevitably to excess.<br><br><br>Andrew<br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:9.6pt"><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a></p></blockquote></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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