<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body lang="en-US" link="blue" vlink="#954F72" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Dear Xavier and Kirk</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
The TLUD is a type of combustion, not a stove product. There are good ones and bad ones. I have tested more of the latter than the former. Burning from the top down doesn't guarantee great performance. Some evidence from the field shows acceptance of the TLUD
stoves, others show a poor fit with the local culture. Beware over-claiming.</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
For this reason, it would be helpful to mention that there are other types of combustion that are very clean, when properly constructed and operated, matched to suitable fuels. These days, there is no measurable difference in performance between a very good
TLUD and a very good crossdraft stove. I am sure there are equally good downdraft stoves. Depending on the application, they each have different strengths. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
As for the CSI test, it is in two parts: a protocol for the development of a 'Technical Test', (TT) and a method for conducting a TT and processing the data. Lab manuals documenting this as a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) also include a standardized method
for recording, naming and archiving data so it can be checked by an external auditor. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
A contextual test naturally uses appropriate pots and fuels. One should not get nor give the impression that it suggests certain or particular pots. Such things are defined by the community of interest. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
It is not a Controlled Cooking Test. It is a carefully controlled lab test that replicates a pattern of operating the stove crafted to replicate the average use patterns, or a test sequence crafted to require the stove to cover the whole range of power and
pot accommodation required in a community, or to cover a portion of that range. It is rare that a stove can 'do everything' a family needs. Stoves are developed for particular markets and functions. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
In its technically simplest form, it is a pot-swapping test, like the Indian National Standard. More technically sophisticated labs like CAU and Jakarta use a heat exchanger in the pot to control the water temperature while quantifying the heat gained. It is
reasonably accurate, typically ±2200 Joules. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
A major potential is crafted into the protocol which is the inclusion, in future, of the Decombustion Theory that estimates the ultimate analysis of the fuel 'just burned' and it's moisture and energy content. At present there is no other test method which
can do this. The intention is to provide a far more accurate estimate of the energy available from the fuel while it burns inhomogeneously, in real time. This method, when fully implemented, will significantly change the rated thermal performance of solid
fuel burning stoves (because they tend not to burn their fuels homogeneously).</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
There is always something new...</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Regards </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Crispin </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div id="_originalContent" style=""><style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma}
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:#954F72;
text-decoration:underline}
.MsoChpDefault
{}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.WordSection1
{}
-->
</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p>Xavier</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The primary point I am making is that the TLUD stove is an excellent type of stove. A well designed TLUD type stove will do well, whatever test it is given. A lesser performing type stove will accordingly do less well, whatever test it
is given. Dr. Anderson is doing good work in his promotion of this type of stove.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The CSI test can test many different cooking vessels. This is good! Is there a lab on the west coast of the USA where I/we can have cooking vessels tested with this test? This would be a lab with quality equipment and well trained personal,
not back yard equipment.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“Both disliked and liked tests” you replaced with “You mean unreliable and reliable”. No, I meant disliked and liked tests. Unreliable and reliable are judgmental, and I chose disliked and liked because they are not judgmental. I said
what I meant.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very little progress has been made. I assume that you are not saying that we should give up.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">TLUDs are among the most capable types of wood cooking stoves, providing steady heat for whatever cooking vessel is used. They are deserving of consideration. Because they do not require continuous attention while in use, they could make
a welcome addition for many busy cooks.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk H.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd48e04705a964d7c142608d5f111aa74%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636679980529234446&sdata=kNOBFU9w670rc8wfaf%2Bu2ycB67%2BEv1q%2BfUZ%2BfALPQnc%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" shash="pybUcoz3YAxrUmrRlwq7qBRGXuwhd6pr3g33c1GQX0dC0pMrgm8tPNsT1yDrP+Mi3TibWpkjIBDWRLhIRYiF6FGpJ7thVCvPxUOoIY1/T1QNPVo5c7CaC292E41QNU7+oKo3lMXloooL+8zXVQTAnwCJdmgwRYuvwK/EUUP/PBc=" target="_BLANK">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none; padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com">Xavier Brandao</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:04 AM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Dear Kirk,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">We could also call « arguing »: « sound scientific discussion ».</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Researchers are arguing about climate change, Artifical Intelligence, the size of the universe … All that is necessary, I believe.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">The « WBT argument » that has been going on « for years » is more like Crispin hammering the fact that the WBT is not reliable, with little to no reaction, and Ron strongly defending the WBT because
of the tiers and denominator equation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Lately, all the evidence against the WBT has been compiled, discussed, and has not been refuted.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">We also talked about alternative protocols at length.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“I had a choice and I chose to work on the TLUD.”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Very good. We are many different people, we can all work on many different things, and share our findings.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">None of the above discussions prevented anyone to work on the stove they like. Instead they gave them full information and warning about the situation with tests.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">I spend very little of my time talking about the WBT, I’m busy with other things.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“If you were working on tests that could be used for all cooking vessels instead of just a pot of water I might abide with you”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">The CSI does that, normally. It is contextual. Crispin might be able to give more clarifications here. Kirk, have you tried this protocol?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">I believe the new standard allows different cooking vessels as well?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">“both disliked and liked tests”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">You mean unreliable and reliable.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Indeed, now is the time to move forward. We want to move forward. We want to drive, drive, drive, fast. But it’s good that we checked first if the car was safe or if it was heading in the right direction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">The ProPublica article sums it up well: only little progress has been achieved by the cookstove sector, after decades of hard work.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">The cause for that certainly wasn’t overthinking, was it?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Xavier</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>De la part de</b> Kirk H.<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mardi 17 juillet 2018 03:46<br>
<b>À :</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Xavier,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The main idea in my response on 7-13 was that well designed TLUDs are excellent stoves, capable of suppling steady, efficient, and low particulate heat for cooking purposes. As far as arguing over tests is concerned, some have indeed been
arguing for years. This was/is over the portion of the WBT which measures the efficiency of getting heat into a pot of water, which to me is very limited. I had a choice and I chose to work on the TLUD.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The next part of my statement is important: “This especially for tests which have more to do with the cooking vessel than with the stove itself.” If you were working on tests that could be used for all cooking vessels instead of just
a pot of water I might abide with you, but not for a test the results of which are of no value for anything but the test pot of water. Do we have a test for stir frying in a wok? Nope. Only a pot of water. Yet woks are extensively used for cooking. And
it doesn’t even matter if we use a wood stove. The cooking vessel tests would get the same results over a natural gas burner as long as all the variables like skirt, lid, and pot stand are held the same. These tests have to do with the cooking vessel not
the capabilities of the stove. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I can abide with the WBT or WHT as long as it is made clear that the disputed portion includes only the efficiency of getting heat into a pot of water, but says nothing about other much used cooking vessels, such as putting soup in the
pot instead of water, or woks, griddles, ovens, etc. Also I note that these cooking vessel tests can use any heat source, like natural gas or electrical, and except for a limited relationship to fire power, do not measure the qualities of the stove itself.
Measurements concerning the stove are taken by the sensors and filters.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Both the disliked and liked tests have a very limited scope. How about looking into some more versatile tests that are not limited to a pot of water. How would we test the efficiency of getting the heat into a wok being used for stir
frying? Perhaps we could use an infrared thermometer to measure the temperature of the food and end the test when it all reaches a temperature that kills bacteria. How about testing the stove and the cooking vessel separately, so each has its own values?
That would give the consumer a much better preview of both, and more knowledge to pick and choose.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">TLUDs are very capable stoves, effectively heating whatever cooking vessel under which they are placed.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk H.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from <a href="https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd48e04705a964d7c142608d5f111aa74%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636679980529390703&sdata=6A5rNlrLNnK85Zd2X3aZCmRfA%2FfKv1nTtLe%2BnySQOEg%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" shash="i1zKHopQlCDEPZO0hZrecybajGgCEqxgUDk7mNZcSlEH8gvcNbAN1BIf5r8ngb2HvuMqpIMj/h3bKVyKA1oyU01ZBXsaVHXpZA+SFXOxDYUoil6rG1gbC5IsjjCMOGDVjOVbPsFjLkE5PKwfnuz8YSz8EQVUBpHnRIXYnmFD5+k=" target="_BLANK">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<br>
<!--end of _originalContent --></div>
</body>
</html>