<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Xavier, Kirk and list</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>see below</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 26, 2018, at 2:53 PM, <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Dear Ron,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">I don’t think the new ISO standard includes the WBT, I think you are the only person claiming that.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I guess you will trust what the South Africa group thinks on this subject. They failed in a fight to remove the WBT. </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> I could send a copy of what has been approved - but that would violate the agreement I made to be part of the process. </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I assure you that I have plenty of company - and it will appear soon. </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>What Nikhil has is possibly/probably 99% of the final.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Until there exists reviews of the WBT protocol demonstrating it is valid, the « cites for inadequacy that are very old » (some are from 2016 and 2017) will be the only proofs there is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">« </span><b class="">[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste? »</b><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">See the table from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Riva and al., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for<o:p class=""></o:p></i></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">improved and traditional three – Stone fire cookstoves</span></i><span class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>below, this is with the WBT:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><span id="cid:image001.png@01D42533.69224380"><image001.png></span></span><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Some of the stoves tested were « Micro-Gasifier Stoves with FAN »<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">« [RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. »</i></b></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">RWL: I agree that the word micro-gasifier was there. They still were only arguing for more tests - that I still claim aren't worth the extra effort. Too much depends on the operator of the test. But that is not sufficient reason to drop the test. Just be satisfied if you and other groups can get within a few percent.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">See above.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class="">« They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful of time and money. »<o:p class=""></o:p></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Only with the WBT I believe. I don’t think the CSI protocol needs more test sessions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Everyone,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Is there a way we could get our hands on the documents of the new ISO standard, and share it with everyone on the List?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Could we crowdpay it for example, and leave it on a website or a server for everyone to see?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">I think it is really a shame that the document is behind a paywall.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><br class="">Xavier<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>jeudi 26 juillet 2018 21:33<br class=""><b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>; Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>>; Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">List, Xavier and Kirk<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The main item not being discussed below is the recently approved (with a huge majority by a lot of stove experts - after years of debate) new ISO test procedures. To me this proves conclusively that the WBT is fine. Giving cites for inadequacy that are very old is no proof of anything.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:51 PM, <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Kirk,<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">“A well designed TLUD type stove will do well, whatever test it is given.”</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">RWL1: Kirk - I have to disagree. There are tests (especially one used in China) that treat char as waste - and so don't measure the produced char. I guarantee that TLUDs will look bad on those tests.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Will it for sure? I have not tested nor seen tests of TLUD stoves myself, nor read that much about TLUD testing.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL2: I gave a cite yesterday to a paper by Jetter et al, that is on testing. Clearly the best performing stoves there were TLUDs and fan-powered (also TLUD principles). To repeat - see</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><b class=""><br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">“A lesser performing type stove will accordingly do less well, whatever test it is given.”</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">No.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">It might perform great sometimes with the WBT. Then terrible. Then great. Then quite ok.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Then it might perform great or terrible in the field.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">There is too much variability and unreliability.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste?</b><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Have you read Fabio Riva and Francesco Lombardi papers?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful of time and money.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I'll stop here - to give time on the above.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Ron</b></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>